[FEEDBACK] MECH RE-BALANCE PTS PHASE 2

Thread in 'MechWarrior Online' started by Blagg Zear, Oct 14, 2015.

  1. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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  2. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    My first impression:

    1) Byebye ECM Bubble Teamshielding
    2) Byebye Clanners OP Superiority

    Is it good?? Idk!?
     
  3. Flokoloko

    Flokoloko Advanced Member

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    The clan laser nerf is a good idea. Leaving the optimum range as it is and reducing the maximum range, makes especialy the CERMLs and CLPLs less OP.
     
  4. enileph

    enileph Star Lord

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    This would most likely nerf lrm also, for good or bad. Lower detection range for mechs.

    Between the range and clan DHS nerf this may have been overdone though.

    Also, long range laser nerf... guess it would be good for the AC then. (PUGs will not work together as a team whatever they do, they should stop pushing for that crap)
     
  5. cs_kami

    cs_kami Benefactor

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    There is already talk on how to maximize lasers (i guess not PPCs?) for the Clans, with TC1+info gathering module Clan Active Prob. Supposed to make it nearly instantaneous. For IS, i guess Command Console.

    The bottom line, we have to re do all the builds... again.
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    As for me, I have MWO installed again but haven't really been playing with it all that much outside of maybe binding a few things to the new mouse etc but I do have some concerns on why the major drastic changes. Part of me worries that this is a "Well, we've had this game running for 4 years with no real new content so let us wipe all mech stats and redo them. It'll make the game 'new' again.". Or something to that effect.

    Maybe I'm reading that wrong but I'm looking at it from the perspective of a returning player who isn't in the know anymore.
     
  7. lord_auriel

    lord_auriel Benefactor

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    yes and no. change is always good, and the balance will probably be what it was before the quirkening - shadowhawks will be revived, and so on. This is good. Because you don't see ANY highlanders, quickdraws, commandos and other mechs of that sort anymore. they are just exctinct and everybody seems to go full meta right now (of course, clan mechs are just BETTER in every regardd atm) and PGI wants to fix that. Also, the thing about the reduced laser damage without locks, is good - teams will need lights to light up targets for them. I think this change is awesome, encourages role warfare and the best thing is, the TTK will be higher. Also those ridiculous weapon quirks will largely vanish, which is also good. This is a direct effort to undo the power crepp that came with the first P2W clan package.

    Of course the official forums are filled with clanners right now who are whining "goodbye LORE" and "yes clans are dead now" without realizing that it is far more important to have a balanced game.

    If a mech is just superior in every wayx than another mech, something is wrong with your game. I mean why on earth would you play a highlander right now. Look at the competitive scene. Clans EVERYWHERE, like, 100%.

    This smells like a new era for MWO and I'm really excited about it.
     
  8. Durandal

    Durandal Min-Max Maniac

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    The good:

    - The clan laser nerfs are good, removing their range advantage, puts them more in-line with other mechs.
    - The info-warfare isn't being completely ignored this PTS, though there are still workarounds by focusing on heavy-dakka builds or gauss pinpoint.
    - ECM mega-balloon is gone.

    The bad:

    - Big alphas are still king...instead of hitting at long ranges, you have big alphas at medium ranges now, more or less negating the laser lock on changes. Still needs work.
    - Some clan weapons are objectively awful now. The cERLL, for instance, is one of the worst weapons in the game with this iteration; long burntime, more heat, and now less effective at range. cLPL is still strong, as are the other clan lasers, but the ERLL is effectively trash most of the time.
    - In a lot of ways, the ECM is now almost worthless on a lot of mechs. Fast mechs can still utilize it well to peek in and out of cover (especially if they have a good midrange build that doesn't suffer from the laser lock on change), but larger, heavier mechs like the DDC, CTF-0XP, and HBR feel a lot more vulnerable now.
    - Laserboat light mechs (Firestarter, Jenner F, ACH) really suffer from the lock issue if there is a lot of ECM present though. It's forced them into close combat, but they are super vulnerable without quirks to assist them right now; the Ember is again back to being one of the best light mechs with its speed and JJ agility, not to mention its build, while a lot of other formerly viable lights are significantly suffering.
    - Infotech has workarounds already, stacking info gathering stuff to instantly get locks through ECM in a lot of cases. I mentioned this before during the last PTS, but a mechanic that is so easily worked around is sub-par at best, it needs more work.
    -The target reticle change is garbage, and brings back a TON of questions about hitreg.
     
  9. ArchAngel Alpha

    ArchAngel Alpha Junior Member

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    Inner Sphere Single Heat Sinks
    • Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
    • Engine-equipped Single Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
    • Chassis-equipped Single Heat Sink heat capacity increased to 1.1 (up from 1).
    Inner Sphere Double Heat Sinks
    • Chassis-equipped Double Heat Sink heat capacity increased to 1.5 (up from 1.4).
    Clan Double Heat Sinks
    • Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink cooling rate increased to 0.15 (up from 0.14).
    • Chassis-equipped Clan Double Heat Sink heat capacity decreased to 1.2 (down from 1.4)

    Clans had inferior cooling? Wat?

    Also, Sarna Stats for ERLL
    Long Range Clan = 16-25
    IS = 15-19
    There is also no mention of burn time differences. However, this is MWO and not the tabletop so I'm not sure what PGI is going to do. And to be honest, removing the quirks will make the Clans superior again, if only somewhat, but Inner Sphere quirks allowed the IS to surpass clan mechs in many circumstances. Well, at least in CW...I am pubbing less these days and instead... ORCS MUST DIE.

    To be honest, clantech is supposed to be superior, especially since the current ingame timeline is set before the clans fell back due to Battle of Tukayyid. This is a game however, so yes balance must be enforced. This is especially valid since there is no usage of bidding or zellbrigen. Well, except in some CW matches where it was done with consent of both sides, and for the spirit of fun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
  10. enileph

    enileph Star Lord

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    Actually despite what PGI would think people are not going to rely on the pieces of shit in your own team to light up targets for them. You don't get people to do simple task as to lock for LRM even now.

    So the solution would be eighter go mid range laser alpha, or move to ballistics. And yes, LRM is useless now that your lock range is reduced, especially on heavy and assault mech.

    With clan nerf we are moving back to the IS mech with enough slots.

    Srsly they should stop trying to force the true info-warfare crap. It might be meaningful in team and units, but the majority are PUGs, and in an FPS you don't really rely on the PUGS you meet, your best hope is that they don't shoot you on your back.
     
  11. enileph

    enileph Star Lord

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    Actually despite what PGI would think people are not going to rely on the pieces of shit in your own team to light up targets for them. So the solution would be eighter go mid range laser alpha, or move to ballistics.

    With clan nerf we are moving back to the IS mech with enough slots.

    Srsly they should stop trying to force the true info-warfare crap. It might be meaningful in team and units, but the majority are PUGs, and in an FPS you don't really rely on the PUGS you meet, your best hope is that they don't shoot you on your back.
     
  12. Dr. Danger

    Dr. Danger Advanced Member

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    Quirks are only omitted on the pts to concentrate on information warfare and sensor quirks, so maybe it's not yet time to worry about that.
     
  13. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    The Changes will have a significant impact on the gameplay. Good or bad - we will see. Imo some changes like the ECM Targetlock Block and the Clan Laser Max Range Nerfs sound reasonable. What i don't like is the approach of Buffing IS and in the same time Nerfing Clans, so to get both Sides balanced perfectly against each other. I'm not a Fanboy of the TT & Lore etc. but imho Clans should always be superior to IS and shoud be balanced by pure Mech Numbers and not their Tech. I know of the technical limitations PGI have (MM, Playerbase etc.). I mean, what is the reason to grind 2x time to get a Clan Mech (grinding for Clan Mechs is aweful nowadays, as never before), when in the end the Clan Mechs feel not really superior, but instead the same power like their cheaper IS counterparts? In a perfect world we would have some balanced 12 v 8 (IS - Clan) Games - Clanners superior, but they can never be in the same numbers in a match like the IS, so as Clanner you rely much more on tactics, when IS rely simply on mass.

    What i am very interested - all you guys who go onto the PTS - which methods do you use to "test" the changes? I myself would do some Testrounds with ECM Mechs, LRM Mechs, Some Tests with Sensor Ranges, and that strange Target Lock - Laser Damage - with every Weight Class. Also some Laser Range Tests and Heat Management Tests with some Hot Energy Builds - with Double Heatsinks and also Single Heatsinks (who uses SHS anyways?? Well, maybe this time.. ^_^). And finally some Weapon Health (Gauss!) & Bonus Equipment Health Tests.

    I can foresee, there will be many many many whiners who are used to play Clan/High Range Laservomit+ECM Builds. The Rest used to play CQC/Medium Range Brawlers and Missile Boats would find the Changes fine.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2015
  14. enileph

    enileph Star Lord

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    I guess the SHS buff is so that people don't bitch. The increase of SHS is the sam as the increase of DHS effectively.
     
  15. Aylek

    Aylek Administrator Staff Member

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    Did anybody actually bother to use the PTS?

    I for myself am OK about the notes but with the ECM changes as either cutting the range in half OR removing the protection against lock-ons would have been enough of a nerf in my view.
     
  16. enileph

    enileph Star Lord

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    Well, we know PGI like to over-compensate things... sort of like that guy with a small dick roaming in a Hummer.
    Pretty sure they will lessen the nerf soon.
     
    Flokoloko likes this.
  17. cs_kami

    cs_kami Benefactor

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    I'm just not happy, clan mechs are supposed to be OP. But they also should count more than an equivalent IS counterparts. (at least 1:1.2)
    Alternatively, make IS tanky, while clan will have better ranged weapons and better cooling, but more fragile mechs. (XL advantages not withstanding)
     
  18. ArchAngel Alpha

    ArchAngel Alpha Junior Member

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    The problem with that, is that Clan mechs were CONSIDERABLY more tanky. The Inner Sphere nearly shat themselves when they realized that the "Madcat"(Timberwolf) was NOT an assault mech, and rather, a heavy.

    However, while they did have tech far in advance, the Inner Sphere had the advantage of numbers, knowledge from centuries of constant, cross-spanning warfare, whilst the clans were in ironically more "peaceful", though stable would be far more accurate, not to mention a far better grasp of logistics, only matched by Clan Wolf(which is why they pushed so close to Terra), plus most definitive of all, ability to adapt.

    In fact, this is technically why quirks were at least somewhat lore friendly, as it would reflect Inner Sphere's mechwarrior's knowledge of their mech and perhaps decades of experience.

    In my humble opinion, quirks should remain, but should affect more subtle things, in powerful ways. Like extremely fast target info (human senses are sometimes better, seriously, if a mech is literally 50 meters infront of you you should be able to eyeball its stuff), speed increases(personal/field modifications), torso twisting(pretty much the same as before<----), milder armor increases(patchwork field repairs that perhaps added more armor than necessary), and the ability to pick and choose quirks in a fashion similar to omnipods without the advantage of hardpoints.
    These would make the IS mech functionally the same, but demonstrate a substantial difference in mechwarrior experience.

    In addition, PGI can balance by not nerfing weapons, but by allowing IS access to a wider range of weaponry. The clans have their cut and paste superior armaments, but IS would have far more flexibilty, especially with experimental or recovered technology. This would also fit the lore, as the Helm memory core HAD been recovered 21 years before the invasion http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Helm_Memory_Core

    21 years to experiment, as well as the fact that copies of the core had been distributed to all houses, even the Draconis Combine, who were the ones that nearly destroyed it.
    TL: DR
    Clans benefit from removal of current shitty quirks, Clans get their stuff buffed at least halfway back up to when they were released, IS gets extremely powerful, interchangeable quirks, that do NOT affect the weapon stats themselves(with RARE exceptions), Access to experimental and recovered lostech, cheaper weapons/mechs/upgrades(To reflect the hometurf/semi mass production logistical advantage) In otherwords, IS is 1:1.4 compared to the clans but recieves a 1d6 roll 1=+.1, 2=+.2, etc. depending on the choices of the player(is he a newbie or someone from mechspecs who knows the game)

    TL: DR the TL: DR
    Clans get back to powerful, but expensive, IS mechs get stronger as the actual player gets more experience playing the game, to the point of surpassing clan mechs if the player is intelligent *pls notice me solahma*
     
  19. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    Having played several hours of MWO last night and getting the feel of it; I can say this...

    I watched clan mechs rip IS mechs to shreds last night in PUG games when @Bolththrower and I took out our King Crabs; sure I did great with an average of around 4 to 1 KDR in that mech last night but watching my company mates (mostly PUGs) get shredded told me one thing; Clan technology is still ridiculously OP. Unless PGI nerf them into the ground, which essentially would put them on parity with the IS, they always will be. For the record, if PGI were to even attempt that they would have soooo many complaints from users that it would be a shitstorm to rival Coolant Flush.

    I don't think PGI will ever get the dynamic right nor do I really think they are seeking balance in the universe. Balance doesn't sell products like making a Flavour of the Month mech does. Whether people call it Pay2Win or not doesn't matter but it is a proven fact that you will make money selling mechs/weapons/products if it is evn slightly better than what is out there for free.

    Let's dissect the clan pilot/mech/technology/ideology shall we?

    Clans fought in Stars of 5, not lances of 4. PGI has put 3 lances of Clan Mechs together and presenting it as a sort of Reinforced Clan Company because of several reasons, chief among those is probably the inability to have 12 v 10 matches because the player base is not large enough or evenly distributed enough to have 12 IS vs 10 Clan matches enforced. It would mean waiting even LONGER for a match. It could also be due to the fact PGI isn't capable of, in a timely manner, working on a separate dynamic for Clan Matchmaking and incorporating it in a Versus match with an Inner Sphere team. It would take a very high level of thought, planning and programming to make a system like that work. I'm on the outside looking in here so can't say for sure they don't have the talent to pull it off but if looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sells like a duck, chances are.......

    In the LORE the Clan mechwarriors were bred for war and had a weird sort of modified code of honor. Your average player in MWO has no such code and will use whatever tactics are required to win thus negating SOME of the balancing factor that allowed the Inner Sphere to fight them with a little more success in the lore. PGI exacerbates this by allowing players to take even numbers of clan mechs, with superior technology and restricting their class/weight to the same as the IS is a recipe for disaster that anyone should be able to see.

    Clan Technology has yet to be adopted into the MWO Inner Sphere technology tree even though it has been a couple of years has it not? Clans have been out for a while and yet the IS weapons haven't changed really. Wanna know why that is? Because Clan Packs sell. Why level the playing field when you can charge for superior technology and keep your business afloat. It is a proven fact that people will get addicted to a product (in this case the game) and throw money at it trying to improve themselves. People will by a clan pack because it is required to remain on the edge of the competitive razor. Some private leagues I've heard of restrict this by saying "All IS or All Clan" matches so that everyone is on the same page but in the world of open, unorganized warfare, this is sheer luck more than programming. Also, Clan Technology is relatively inexpensive compared to the benefits. Some players have hundreds of millions of cbills. Clan mechs? Take it from petty cash please!

    Just some thoughts to stir up the fanbois ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
    Blagg Zear likes this.
  20. enileph

    enileph Star Lord

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    Just open up some clan tech stuff to IS already.
    Problem solved.

    IS get to use both tech, and se we know it clans won't use IS stuff.
     
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