May 21st Weapons, ECM, BAP Tweaks and MOAR!

Thread in 'Official 'Mech News' started by Cattra Kell, May 2, 2013.

  1. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Raven 3L builds often include BAP+ECM, because they have the spare tons/slots and AMS is crap. This build gives ECM coverage (when BAP or Counter isn't nearby) AND has an active counter, so it's basically like running 2 ECM in 1. However, I think running 1 counter instead of none in all the other lights is going to make the 3L not so bad.

    I also think SSRM boats on Catapult A1s and C(whichever C is 4xmissiles), Jager As, Stalkers (primarily thinking 5M, but most of the others), etc. will make the ECM+BAP lights think again.
     
  2. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    I'm tired of needing skill to counter them when they don't need any.
    Example: I'm a PPC spider pilot, meaning I'm carrying ECM and a weapon able to disrupt enemies ECM (also meaning my armor is made of wet paper). At the moment fight against 3L (or COM-2D) is interesting because I have the ability to disrupt their ECM, thus preventing them to counter me and streak me. If I miss a shot they hit me, that's the deal. Note that it's not even fair: I'm the only one needing skill here, they only need me to miss (ok, they can deploy dodging skill or whatever, but to be honest most of the time when I miss it's me aiming like crap, not them); but it's still fine with me.
    Next patch they will be able to counter me simply by standing next to me (it won't be difficult except if I simply run away). What if I hit them and counter their ECM? Shit they don't care, it doesn't affect their counter anymore, they still can press their noob death button.

    (again, the problem here are the SSRMs, we don't need this weapon)
     
  3. Moonsword

    Moonsword Star Lord

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    Epikt,

    It has been stated by a PGI member that this will not happen, mechs equipped with a BAP and an ECM will not receive the countering effects of the BAP.
     
  4. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    Oh! What a relief :D
     
  5. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    It has? Interesting.

    I'm actually halfway considering dropping ECM and picking up BAP on my COM-2D, though, so I can hit shut down mechs.
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    My Raven has both... it will be a decision on which one I want to utilize LOL
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Yeah my Raven has both, too, but the Commando can't fit both with any appreciable amount of firepower. 3xSSRM eats quite a bit into the available tonnage of a 25-ton mech that can move 149 kph.

    So they're buffing LRM speed, but I didn't see anything listed regarding damage/splash/spread. The issue I see here is that AMS is still going to be bad, if not worse, because missiles will get through the AMS bubble quicker.
     
  8. Warchanter

    Warchanter Well-Known Member

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    Speedier LRM's helps open up their realistically effective range also: in most cases now you're not really going to be taking many shots over 600 or 700m whenever any decent amount of cover is available to a target, it's almost always a waste of the ammo... So I can see maybe getting more hits a little further out now, which is definitely helpful for the artillery community...hopefully these tweaks will make LRM's a little more fun and rewarding to use again....
     
  9. YaoYaoYiffy

    YaoYaoYiffy Active Member

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    I'm not a fan of BAP countering ECM so hard.

    For one, not that I'm a hardcore Table-Top Purist (having NEVER played table-top), but a BAP is an extra sensor suite in one mech that helps it track enemies. Why does it somehow completely disable ECM equipment? I could understand it maybe letting the BAP-equipped mech target the ECM'd target, but I feel like it basically shutting-off ECM is a balance change that doesn't have much to do with the actual equipment. My mech has really good sensors, and for some reason that negates the interference you generate completely? The BAP doesn't perform area EECM function in any other mechwarrior source that I've played (admittedly being Mechwarriors 2-4 and the Mechcommanders).



    And more importantly, I don't like the overall balance changes. The ECM is a very specific piece of equipment, only maybe 1/2 a dozen variants can even equip it. EVERYONE can use BAP, and as some people mentioned, in all but the lightest frames it's not a huge sacrifice (dropping a HS to fit, not dropping a Gauss).

    ECM is perhaps too powerful right now, but I don't like the solution of handing out a panacea to anyone who wants to bother putting up 1.5 tons. It feels like a heavy-handed and over-simplified solution that leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    Someone else was just talking about being frustrated in situations where they had to use skill vs. an opponent who just has to wait for you to screw up. I think the BAP change is similar situation. A player who picks a mech from a very limited list to play a certain way is ignored if anyone who gets within 150m and bothered to load a BAP.



    It isn't to say that this won't all work out in the end, and this somehow turns out to be an effective, playable, and fun metagame for everyone. But I'm worried...
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    This isn't really that bad. It won't stop ECM from being used for scouts, and ECM will still work at longer ranges. It just means that big mechs can actually hit lights with streaks.

    While yes, only 5 variants could use ECM, the amount of people running those mechs is a much bigger portion of the MWO community than it would otherwise suggest. Probably 60% of the Atlai, 80% of the Ravens, 80% of the Spiders, and maybe 60% of the commandos that I've seen have ECM. Lights with ECM make up probably 70% of the lights I go up against, and D-DCs make up a significant portion of Assaults considering they're the only variant with ECM. It gets worse when they cheese-build it and run multiple ECMs.

    I would agree with BAP only allowing YOU to retain targeting while in ECM bubble (whether it's the ECM target or not) instead of working as a counter, but if they're going to make ECM OP or make BAP the OP counter, I'd rather have BAP be the OP counter.
     
  11. YaoYaoYiffy

    YaoYaoYiffy Active Member

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    I didn't know you could stack ECM on the same mech, lol. I was stuck with the assumption you could only load one, lol.



    I think the problem with ECM is that it does too many things for the user, there's no choice or risk/reward. It jams missiles, it jams targeting, it jams target-sharing. It does all these things automatically without the user hitting a button or engaging their brain in the slightest. I think the problem started here, ECM did too much, too easily; and for a long time with no viable counters other than running ECM yourself in counter mode.

    Instead of addressing what (IMO) is the core problem of ECM being too versatile and powerful, they're looking at just putting in something else powerful and versatile that over-rides it. ECM is an "I WIN" button now, and the upgrade to BAP is just making it a "NU-UH" button.



    I would rather see a more complex ECM mechanic. As a briefly thought-up example: multiple modes, one for jamming missiles (longer targeting times and/or increased missile miss chance) of nearby enemies, one for jamming targeting outright outside of X range (but no effects against missiles if you are targeted/target-linked/TAG'ed) against long-range enemies, and a counter mode that works against either if you're close to an enemy ECM. Then just drop in BAP as something that lets YOU mitigate the effects of enemy ECM.

    Now a player would have to chose. Do I want to "sneak" and avoid locks entirely by jamming targeting? Or do I need to run up up to some enemy missile-boats and jam their missiles so my teammates can cross an open plain? Now I have to make a choice during a match with my ECM, and not just rely on it as an "I WIN" to defend me and my teammates at any range.

    And non-ECM players have the option of running BAP to counter ECM individually (PUG'ing anyone?) without eliminating some of the uniqueness of ECM in counter-mode.

    Skill and risk/reward > static x beats y beats z systems.

    Whinning on a forum for the sake of whinning I suppose :)
     
  12. Dwergi

    Dwergi Well-Known Member

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    Meh, ECM doesn't really matter at the moment because missiles don't really matter at the moment.

    PPC poptarts are dominant because they're easy and they're effective and they don't really have many downsides. If missiles were scarier, maybe ECM would be a problem.
     
  13. Aylek

    Aylek Administrator Staff Member

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    Let's wait for the missile speed buff and it's impact. I highly appreciate the step-by-step approach of balancing things out. Poptarts seem to be declining anyway since people figured out how to beat them. Ever faced a pack of 2-4 mediums flanking while wilding your 3PPC + Gauss Highlander? Scary as hell.
     
  14. Dwergi

    Dwergi Well-Known Member

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    I use a CTF-3D, and honestly, I'm not afraid of much. Since you're poptarting from minute 2, you have pretty good map awareness. If people are coming towards you, you join your pack. If you're with your pack and a bunch of Atlases are bearing down on you, you run away while hammering them.

    People seem to forget how much mobility jumpjets give you - it's impossible to chase down a -3D without having jumpjets of your own on Tourmaline.

    That, and brawling in a poptart really isn't as bad as people make it out to be. Turn, fire, jump, repeat. The ability to spread out damage vertically as well as horizontally is very valuable.
     
  15. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Yao, I'm referring to teams bringing 3 Raven 3Ls and 3 Atlas D-DCs when I talk about ECM stacking. At that point, it doesn't matter who you hit with PPCs or whether or not you have ECM (unless you're stacking) they will be able to counter you while maintaining ECM coverage.

    As to your suggestion, I've thought they should do 3 different ECM modules, one for slowing missile locks at all ranges (not negating), one for targeting at range, and one for sending target information on enemies caught in ECM bubble. All three can be swapped over to counter. While I do feel this is a cheap fix for ECM, it's far better than no change.

    Dwergi is right, I'm a little hesitant to go up against Gauss + 2 ER PPC even up close.
     
  16. Warchanter

    Warchanter Well-Known Member

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    I know it's not the greatest, but when I'm handing out LRM goodness, TAG goes quite a long way... no shortage of people out there running ECM who will just stroll around out in the open having no realization that they are about to get rained on in a big way...
     
  17. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    The issue with TAG is does nothing if you are in ECM bubble. All it takes is a light to get near you, and it doesn't matter where your enemy is, you're not dealing LRM damage until that light is dead or runs away. BAP will fix that.
     
  18. Warchanter

    Warchanter Well-Known Member

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    Granted. I've managed to avoid that for the most part I think through good positioning around my big stompy friends that enjoy blowing legs off of fast skinny things... It is a great buff for the LRM jocks but I wonder if perhaps the BAP/TAG combo will now be invincible? At least out to the range of the TAG laser there's no shielding now at all other then terrain, right?

    Not that I'm complaining, but it would seems sort of pointless to be running ECM on something like an Atlas since nothing can shut off a TAG laser and TAG will enable targeting no matter who is around the tagger... are we going to see complaints from that cross-section of players about the balance swinging too far the other way now?? What exactly is ECM protecting you from at this point??
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    ECM can still provide some obscurity. If they are not actively tagging, they won't see you, and if you are covering multiple friendlies, TAG will only help them hit one at a time. Like I said, though. I would rather have ECM be mostly nullified than have it be rapantly OP. It's not like these changes will make the mechs that can use ECM useless. D-DC is still the best missile Atlas, COM-2D the best missile light, Raven-3L the only raven capable of moving at a decent speed, and the 5D has already been said to be the best Spider regardless.

    Also, you're bound to find that a week or two after the change goes into effect, we'll see less ECM, so people will take their counters off to fit more DHS/ammo/speed again.
     
  20. Warchanter

    Warchanter Well-Known Member

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