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OP mech or simply filling a niche?

Discussion in 'Piranha' started by Shock, Feb 9, 2018.

Piranha - OP or niche mech only fitting a few freaks?

  1. OP, all of them.

    2 vote(s)
    15.4%
  2. OP, but only variant... (add in response!)

    4 vote(s)
    30.8%
  3. Borderline playable, but very good when working.

    6 vote(s)
    46.2%
  4. Freak mech - only for those who like to ride on a razor's edge.

    1 vote(s)
    7.7%
  1. Shock

    Shock Star Lord

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    Enjoy it while you can. MGs are almost certainly going to get nerfed
     
  2. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    Wouldn't one of the laser boat types be more dangerous. Doing 14+ dps from 200 meters out. Dropping 60 damage in a shorter time period.

    I can see end game with armor stripped and not many mechs left being a different story.
     
  3. Shock

    Shock Star Lord

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    You might think so but I don't think it's possible for it to cool that many lasers. The problem is 12 MGs that don't ever stop firing. How many mechs get a sustained DPS over 14.0?

    EDIT: That's one second to get through back armor and then DPS does what? Doubles for MGs on exposed structure?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  4. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    That is true. DPS does go up on exposed internals.

    It would be unfortunate if a weapon system was nerfed based on one mech variant.

    That said, I could see a decrease in crit damage. Is anyone concerned about the range or base damage?
     
  5. Shock

    Shock Star Lord

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    They aren't a problem until you get up into the range of having 6 or more on a mech. And it's compounded when it's a tiny mech that is hard to shoot and can easily get behind the enemy. That's why I think ghost heat is coming. It was obvious when the new Myst Lynx and Arctic Cheetah came out last fall.
     
  6. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    I guess we will see...


    ...when Piranha comes out for C-bills.
     
  7. Aylek

    Aylek Administrator Staff Member

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    A nerf might be called for... but how? Ghost 'heat' on weapons not producing any heat? This would only show how ridiculously bad this system is in the beginning.

    Also, while I do think that both MLX and ACH are fine for MG boating (and situationally better), the PIR and especially the -1 might be a bit over the top - when played right. On the other hand, it balances itself quite nicely with it top speed, fragility (a LCT has better hit boxes!) and being a bit short on ammo (like this build shows).

    Playing this thing for several hours yesterday pushed my adrenaline to high levels constantly because you can't afford being unaware of what's going on all the time - certainly another factor of balancing this chassis. It also teached me how unaware a lot of Assault Pilots are, which certainly adds to the feeling of this Mech being too strong. A single Medium doing guarding duties usually ment a bad round for me. While Streak Boats seemed to have faded away again, a couple of MPLs are usually enough of a thread. When playing an AC20 + SNPPC YLW for a change (running with our Heavies & Assaults obv) a single PIR didn't stand a chance at all as well. A wolfpack of 2/3 or more Piranhas is evil, but this holds true for any group of light mechs working together.
     
    Remover of Obstacles likes this.
  8. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    Totally agree.
    I have a harder time hitting Locusts (which are smaller for same tonnage). But one volley of streaks or direct fire weapons usually kills or maims a piranha.

    Adding Ghost Heat to machine guns would make PGI a laughing stock. And if they drop the crit damage on Clan MG to any noticeable level, there will be no reason to take MGs on any other clan mech.... Remember when clan used to have something called a small pulse laser.

    Very true. I am still more scared of Assassin squads at the moment. Man those things can take a beating and hit hard from outside of seismic sensor range. Hit from 200 meters out and you will make a lot of assault pilots look like complete idiots. Just a very rough match up for how slow they are, especially 100 tonners. :(
     
    Aylek likes this.
  9. Aylek

    Aylek Administrator Staff Member

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    As it seems I for myself seem to finally have found my mech. I am hardly driving anything else at the moment and also don't see a reason why I should do so... You might see me in a Linebacker or Hellbringer once in a while, but that's only for a small change.

    BUT I am still not sure wether this small monster simply fits me & my playstyle or wether the PIR is an OP little monster.

    Therefore I seperated a discussion kicked of by @Shock about 2 weeks ago in one of the build discussions for the PIR-1 simply to find out what the Mechspecs.com users are thinking about this. I already heard a lot of arguments, so I am pretty curious what our users' opinions are on this topic.
     
  10. Shock

    Shock Star Lord

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    I've seen Piranha pilots face-tank mechs 60 tons heavier. Hit registration on small, fast mechs is just too bad. Personally, I think that's probably more of an issue than the masses of MGs. A volley of 4xSRM6 should leave a Piranha hurting and 2 should make it crippled and that doesn't happen.
     
  11. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

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    I have never run a Piranha myself, so this is just curiosity: Shouldn't a set of Streak-6s shut them down pretty hard? Like, a HMN-Pakhet rocking 4 or 5 Streak-6s should spell the end for a Piranha. Or is hitreg bad for streaks too?
     
  12. Shock

    Shock Star Lord

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    I've never tested hitreg for streaks but I wouldn't be surprised if not all missiles hit. I've long had the same suspicion about LRMs too. I also haven't tested the newly modified streaks that shifted the targeting more toward torsos than limbs. Every mech has some kind of counter, But you're talking a pretty specialized build when you're boating 4 or more streak racks
     
  13. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

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  14. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    I wonder about that too. There are some Locust games out there with 1300+ damage or even 1500+ damage and I wonder if it is just the agility of the mech or does the game have a hard time registering damage.

    I think with slower LRMs, fast mechs (140 kph+) can turn and "outrun" them a fair amount of time if they are fired from a decent distance.

    Using a Huntsman with 8xSSRM4s made very quick work of a Piranha before the patch once a lock was achieved. Like taking a flaming battle axe to a pinata filled with jet fuel. I haven't tested it since the last patch.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  15. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    Cipher - Seems to be the strongest from what I have seen. (I didn't buy one..yet). Six energy hardpoints and room for 6 machine guns. Good energy with decent machine gun back up. Also 6 MGs chew through the limited ammo at a more reasonable rate. Best balance and best sustainable dps with ammo count and heat. Still potent after the MG ammo is gone. Probably going the variant that most pilots will post their first 1k match with it they have broken through the pay wall.

    PIR-1 - It has all the machine guns - but not enough ammo and too limited on energy punch. Still an amazingly fun mech to run during the last two minutes of a winning match. Once the ammo runs out (and it will in less than a minute) you are in a very sad state and can be ignored with relative safety.

    PIR-2 (and PIR-3) - It has all of the energy hardpoints. You can really put 15 HSL on this mech. Yes, if the enemy stands still and doesn't torso twist or doesn't have seismic to let you know that a light just got within 100 meters of you - this could hurt a bit. But it is a very sub-optimal mech to have on your team for the because it will often be hiding and cooling and can only pull off it's super alpha trick a few times and the target needs to be very close and very still for over 2.2 seconds.

    Over time, I think we will see more and more people start taking off lasers and start adding more heatsinks. I think that will normalize out a lot of the games were pilots are dying with low damage games after engaging and immediately hitting their heat limits, essentially leaving their team down a mech during critical engagement times which tends to lead to losing and lower damage/match score. Or when they run away, a mech with better cooling or more heat efficient weapons will tear it apart.

    Then again, coring out assault lurm boats is very satisfying.
     
  16. Falconium

    Falconium Administrator Staff Member

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    It's called dropping two strikes. @Ruludos demonstrated it's possible to do at least 800 damage with a pair of well-placed strikes, and I think it's almost certain that matches like the ones you mentioned involved strikes doing a fair chunk of the damage.

    That said, I have seen Locusts and Piranhas do decent damage with even just 4 ERMLs. In a long match, if your team loses overall, but the remaining enemies don't have the weapons/speed to take you down, it's possible to run a full 5-10 minutes, poking damage and even kills. In fact, I watched @Excalibaard experience just such a match a week or so ago. Just 2 Locusts, each with ECM and 4 ERMLs, took out the last 5 'Mechs on the enemy team, over about 7 minutes. It was interesting to watch, and in the end those Locusts put some pretty nice numbers on the board.
     
  17. Shock

    Shock Star Lord

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    The difference between Locusts and Piranhas is that Locusts do their damage over a long match. A Piranha will core out an assault mech from behind in a few seconds. that all comes down to hardpoints and tech. You can't put 12 MGs on a Locust and even if you could, you'd be short on ammo because IS MGs weigh twice as much as Clan MGs.
     
  18. Remover of Obstacles

    Remover of Obstacles Star Lord

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    I agree.

    Anyone else surprised that the HSL got a damage buff? Presumably PGI has stats on the weapon which one would assume to include the PIR-2.

    Anyway, definitely a different play style. But very exciting to play.
     
  19. The Verge

    The Verge Moderator Staff Member

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    I was in a Locust the other day, and went toe to toe with a clan boat on Crimson Strait. We were all alone on the island to the west. I simply used hill cover to peek and pop him, while his SSRMs would try to hit me at close range, only to eat dirt. I killed that mech easily, so I don't think I will ever run streaks unless I have both a TC and BAP to support them.

    This is a rare occasion in QP, but boy did I feel like a gangster after that kill.
     
    Aylek, Falconium and Shock like this.
  20. CarloArmato

    CarloArmato Star Lord

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    8+ MGs on a 20 ton is OP: you get crits for nothing (and chicks for free)
    PIR-1 and PIR-CI are 2 examples...

    The heavy alfa strike builds (10xcHSL, 5xcHSL+8xcERuL and so on) are very niche and can be used only for back stabbing bigger mechs... IMHO they are too hot to be as viable as the PIR-1 and the Cipher
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2018

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