The "I want the pop tards back" Blues

Thread in 'MechWarrior Online' started by Marec, Jun 8, 2013.

  1. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    Funny how you only appreciate some things whe they're gone. Like pop tards - although frankly, I never understood the hype in the first place. I wasn't cut down by them the minute I stepped away from the drop. I found them fairly easy to counter: YOU know where they would be when they come out of cover, but they wouldn't know where you will be. That's actually an advantage against a pop tard. And that "auto-duck behind cover after the shot" might or might not be an incredible advantage - not getting off that second alpha before I could take cover might have saved me more often than is generally appreciated.

    On the other hand, there is one definite advantage to poptarding: Standing close to an obstacle, perhaps even sporting an AMS, you enjoy pretty good immunity against missiles.
    Thinking back, I think this made pop tards the natural opposite to LRM boats. And with poptards being stomped out, missile boats are everywhere.

    I used to advocate the LRM buff, I always said "if half the team brings an AMS then the LRM threat is very managable."
    But in the last two days I played quiet a few matches were either the majority of our team, or the opposite team, or both, were made up of LRM platforms.

    The match I played before posting this was pretty bad in that regard: On caustic, the enemy team took that hill between Theta and Kappa and pretty much just showered everything with LRMs. I think there were 6 Missile spammers on that team. And we were set up pretty well: At least half of our team did have AMS. And it was somewhat manageable as long as everybody was sticking together closely, for overlapping AMS zones.
    But the second someone walked away, he was utterly destroyed by 5, 10 salvoes of LRMs coming from all over the place. I find this really annoying.

    I really hope that once they fix the Jump jet nerf, things will go back to normal to some extend.
     
  2. Soy

    Soy Min-Max Maniac

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    :)

    We still exist, just....... 'flavor' happens, hehe...
     
  3. Tsume Eiranis

    Tsume Eiranis Well-Known Member

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    I have to say I like the shake to the JJs. I see a JJ Alpha every now and then, but that's a rare sight because it now requires actual brains and skills.

    On the matter of not knowing where I am while I know it... that's sadly not true, because he has 7 lancemates which all can give my position away. I have been in matches with 5-6 of them, all Alphaing at once and each time it dropped one of us.

    As for LRMs... I've gotten to eliting my Catapults, finally and they are far from that bad as you make them out to be. As it stands, the teams finally have a great balanced weapon loadout. You see PPCs (still an abundance of those honestly), you see lasers left and right, ACs and in fact LRMs.

    The JJ fix was needed because when you look at some reports, some people could not play this game in ANY other fashion then use the JJs and fire away... I have been in matches with those Highlanderpilots... and frankly, they were just 90 tons of dead weight. No torso twisting, no aiming, no position movements, no team support... I am sorry but to me, that's good riddance of a broken system. If they work on JJs I hope that they won't water it down to the point that this game mechanic can be exploited as it was before.
     
  4. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    ...more like iron guts, really. The only use I ever make of JJs is navigating obstacles and fast change of heading, and as it is JJs are pretty much nerfed for that as well. Fortunately, I'm rather confident it will go. The question PGI is probably pondering right now is how to roll it into a face saving 'adjustment".

    A pity we don't send webcam shots along with the forum posts because I'm fairly certain you didn't post THAT with a straight face...
    Two days ago, I was in a drop with 4 Atlas, 2 Stalkers, a Cataphract and me in a Jager. I thought "oh good, some serious firepower here, let's go get'em ...". But NO, everybody was taking place on that hill on Caustic between Kappa and Theta, the other team behind the crater, an then everybody let go and started chucking missiles at each other.
    More than 13 minutes into the match, it was just LRMs going to and fro. Except for me (AS20 Jager, at range between 800 and 1000 m there's not much to do) and an Ilya pilot on the other side who came up behind a ridge, fired at us and was buried under a barrage of LRMs from our side.
    In the end someone from the other team made a grab for our base, I went to check, was cut down the same way the Ilya pilot was before, and so was everyone else as they walked down, one by one, after their predecessor blew up... I think we had 3 left when they had capped our base.
    Of all the long winded, static, extremely boring and highly situational drops I played so far this one carries the crown away.

    And it was pretty obvious this would happen. Or something like this. You can't change a game mechanics in a fundamental way and believe that everything else remains the same. Nature - and gamers - abhorr a vacuum, making jump jet sniping near impossible pretty much left one. I'm really wondering how many of all those Highlanders and Catapults I see launching swarms of LRMs had a sniper build until very recently.

    I don't dispute that an adjustment was due. But why not just add a bit of heat to the JJs, and add some spray for weapons that are fired while the jump jet is engaged. The game mechanics is already there (see SRMs with/without Artemis).

    That way, pinpoint sniping at extreme range would have become more difficult, there wouldn't have been high alphas on a single hit box from way across the map, you still could use Jump Jets in any other way, and you could still use Jump Jets in brawl fights without shooting the team mate behind you instead of the target in front of you.

    They went way over board here, that's a "fix" that did more harm than good.
    And by the way, don't be so hard on Highlander pilots, these things are really sluggish. Without a jump jet turn, you stand no chance against a light or medium mech near you.
     
  5. Tsume Eiranis

    Tsume Eiranis Well-Known Member

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    I said it with a straight face. I have been dropping all morning. When I was in my Catapult, there was most of the time ONLY me with LRMs and I have a few witnesses to vouch for me if you want to accuse me of making things up here. When not using my Catapult I had matches without any LRMs at all present, whether on my team not on the other team.

    I am sorry you had such a LRM slugfest, but honestly...

    You need to keep either line of sight or have a spotter.
    You have to maintain lock while the LRMs fly.
    Your target gets a warning and unless they are in the open area in Forest Colony, can duck behind cover.
    ECM umbrella still works at a range where my BAP does not reach and unless you scout, should stick with a part of your group as well.

    Please tell me where this is OP compared to jumpjetting and fireing an Alpha button in a straight line?

    As for this... an Atlas is the pinnacle of sluggish and they don't even have jumpjets to maneuver.
     
  6. UntamedZer0

    UntamedZer0 Well-Known Member

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    I think you are just having bad luck in assault mode. While I have seen some groups a little heavier on LRMs they finally seem more balanced out to where they should be for the niche that they fill. I am not seeing them abused.

    I am still seeing a lot of 40 damage worthless Highlanders. They are always good for a laugh. Jump sniping isn't impossible. I have even jump sustained fire in my BJ-1 landing most hits on target, just now I can't pinpoint them all on your weak spot rather I am peppering targets all over. This all feels right to me.

    So you had some bad off balance drops, they still happen. Doesn't mean the whole patch was off balance, it feels more balanced me. I even went as far as to switch my Cent-ALs SRM10 (6+4) back to an LRM10 (5+5) so that my missile hard points would see more productive use. The meta is shifting back towards rounded builds.

    I think the proper name for this thread should be "The Bad Match Blues".
     
  7. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    True enough, and strictly speaking that was pretty much the only reason for me to drop money for a Heavy Metal (my only Assault mech btw) over an Atlas (10 tons more useful load). You may call that a cloud on my judgement, but I am fairly pissed at having spent money on a mech that just lost his raison d'être over a (C-Bill priced) Atlas.
     
  8. UntamedZer0

    UntamedZer0 Well-Known Member

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    The Highlander was designed as an urban fighter with JJs to clear obstacles (fallen buildings and such) and to aid in it's maneuverability. No where in it's design philosophy do I see anything relating to pop tarting being mentioned so I have to disagree. Pop tarting isn't the Highlanders reason for existence, thats just what a lot of players turned it into.

    So now I have to question, you said you weren't a pop tart but your whole thread has ultimately been a defense of pop tarting, stating that that is the reason for the Highlanders existence, and being defensive of the chassis. The vibes you are giving off strike me as contrary to your initial statements about the subject. Especially with your expressed anger over the HM. It's OK to admit you are a pop tard. Now is where you discover what sets the long time players that stick around to those who emo rage quit: you learn to adapt and soldier on when things change. The HM didn't lose it's reason to exist, your favored method of play with it has been altered and you have yet to adjust. It has happened to all of us at least once. It is beta after all, there will be changes.
     
  9. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    Ok, maybe I haven't made this clear, so let me point it out:
    1. I do not have ANY pop tard build, nor did I ever use one. My Cata 3D is a dual Gauss without Jump Jets, and my Heavy Metal is a Brawler with SRMs, Large Lasers and 1 JJ for Jump turns.
    2. Call it defense if you like, what I was saying is that just stomping out pop tard has not 'solved' anything, it merely made the caravan move on. And the current flavour of LRM boating I find far more annoying than pop tards which as far as I'm concerned was a hype, not a real problem. You saw a few of them hoping a few times during a match, is all. So ? You needed a mech with Jump jets and the ability to carry big guns. But Missiles ? I see Ravens and Jenners launching LRMs, and if you pay attention to the kill message when you get down (if you get down) - well I noticed on mine that I'm often hit by any kind of LRM launchers, from LRM5 upwards to LRM20s. Everybody and their grandmother is carrying those these days, or so it seems.
    3. Please don't assume that somebody ragequits or is defending "his favoured method of play" just because he's pointing out the flaws in a bad patch that is not going to stay as it is anyway.

    If you read my other posts you'll see pretty well that I prefer Jagers - I posted quiet a few builds for those, and they're as unpopping as it gets.
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    If you are being hit by LRM5 you must not be carrying AMS; if you were that should negate at least the LRM5 and half of an LRM10.

    ive had to adjust my builds to include AMS but haven't found LRMs to be as prolific as claimed here.
     
  11. UntamedZer0

    UntamedZer0 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps some of us are jaded now. I have been through every LRM hell week(s) that has occurred in open beta. They do not feel broken or messed up to me at all nor do I really see any of your complaints here. Believe me I am one to point out patch flaws but I simply do not see any of your issues in practice. Then again I am one to try to always keep cover at all times so I don't often find myself out in the open to get picked apart. I don't even run AMS on a majority of my builds and do not find LRMs at present a problem.
     
  12. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    Actually yes, I do carry AMS - as a matter of fact I'm often one of a few who carry it. But if you get just swamped with missiles from every direction, a wave of LRM5 coming in behind some LRM20 and LRM15s will hit. As I said: The damage report shows I'm being hit by all kinds of those things in a single match, that's how common they are.
    I started using AMS before the first LRM fix (the one with the 90 degree incoming) in anticipation of more missiles. I was doing fine. But the last few days I even get "low ammo" warnings from the AMS, and at least for me that's a new one.
    It's not the missiles that are different. There just seem to be a lot more now. Perhaps if you're primarily playing light or medium mechs you won't experience that to that extend since you can move fast enough to actually dodge some of them.
     
  13. Tsume Eiranis

    Tsume Eiranis Well-Known Member

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    I am mostly running heavies and assaults... maybe it is the ELO bracket you are in. I have hardly missiles in my matches and heck, the last match I did earlier I got yelled at for being a "LRM fag" ... and I was the only one using a Catapult with 2 LRM15+A and 4 SSRM2s.

    So you can't even say it was an LRM only build. *shrugs*
     
  14. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    This is true. You can get easily swamped but I have never been in a match such as you describe. I run everything from Light to Assault mechs and I don't think I have ever sat there going "OMRGAWD!! WTF Missiles". I've seen them being used again, which is great, but I have never looked up and felt like.....

    [​IMG]

    As was said could be your ELO? Are you experiencing this across all your weight categories? Newer players tend to bring more LRMs as it allows them to stay alive longer during the course of their learning the game (and their false assumption that LRMs are easy mode). If you are running into entire PUB matches filled with LRMs I can only guess your ELO for that weight class is lower?
     
  15. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    Could be, where can I see my ELO ? The last couple of matches, if I died I went to spectate, with particular attention to the Paper doll, and the majority of the builds had at least one LRM in it - the weirdest one I saw was a Jager-A with 1x LRM10, 15 and 20, each, and a Tag - nothing else.
     
  16. Tsume Eiranis

    Tsume Eiranis Well-Known Member

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    You can't see your ELO. It is a PGI-internal stat that is a combo of your match stats and effectivity per 'Mech that puts you into a "fitting" area with other same-skilled players.

    As for the weird build, there is nothing off about it. you will see boats every now and then. Granted, with LRMs you will have a hard time boating as you have no defense in a brawl... but if your teammates are reliable and can cover you, no one stops you from piloting a pure LRM carrier.
     
  17. Marec

    Marec Well-Known Member

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    Weeeeell I think I'd rather use that 120 ton Atlas "Plus" than counting on reliable backup in PUGs :D
     

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