To Cheese or Not to Cheese?

Thread in 'MechWarrior Online' started by Magnificent Bastard, Jan 22, 2014.

Do you own a "cheese build"?

  1. Yes. The cheese must flow.

    11 vote(s)
    28.9%
  2. Yes. But only to fight cheese with cheese.

    10 vote(s)
    26.3%
  3. I'm not sure. What is cheese?

    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  4. No. I would but can't afford the cheese.

    2 vote(s)
    5.3%
  5. No. I am lactose intolerant.

    7 vote(s)
    18.4%
  1. skidog2k3

    skidog2k3 Dispossessed

    Way too hard to keep up with you guys...
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Lol skidog, I'm a forum junkie. I was planning on going to a meeting about it, but their website had a forum, and...well...
     
  3. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    When I say stop!!!! LOL Actually I have no idea, that is where you have to put trust in PGI. I know, the irony is not lost on me!

    [quote author=ReconSaint link=topic=5427.msg35296#msg35296 date=1390582968]
    Most of your run-of-the-mill, high-damage, pinpoint alpha builds are the largest mechs with the heaviest loadouts on them, thus essentially making them slow as balls. A decent lance of mediums and fast brawler heavies can tear apart these mechs in seconds once in range.
    [/quote]

    I disagree. Have you ever tried to route out SJR players or FM players when they are in full poptart, entrenched, force you to come to us mode? Them being slow doesn't matter one iota as they aren't moving anywhere but up and down. Also, brawlers get blown apart before they can get into brawl range and mediums don't have the armor... "We can't handle firepower of that magnitude" (Admiral Mon Momtha Ackbar)

    [quote author=ReconSaint link=topic=5427.msg35296#msg35296 date=1390582968]
    Furthermore, with tonnage restrictions, we wouldn't see a whole flock of these mechs. I don't know of any one solution to a given problem, and I understand that MWO is supposed to be a "thinking mans shooter" but I'm not a hardcore min/maxer nor a Spreadsheet warrior online officianato.
    [/quote]

    PGI could have instituted tonnage limits a long time ago. My concern is that the player base has declined to such a level that doing this would be counter productive to the sustainability of the game as all the little assault kiddies would be sitting around with their thumbs up their butts waiting for a match while the rest of the people are dropping regularly.

    Players expect games to change to meet their needs, not the other way around.

    [quote author=ReconSaint link=topic=5427.msg35296#msg35296 date=1390582968]
    I just want to kill things and have fun.

    But mostly kill things :3
    [/quote]

    So say we all.
     
  4. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Thought that quote was Admiral Ackbar.

    I guess the question is would more people come out of hiding for weight limits or would they lose more on assault queue times?
     
  5. CX 1237

    CX 1237 Active Member

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    It -is- Ackbar!
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah

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    You are correct. I'm on my phone and didn't have a chance to get the name. Mon Montha was the human chick that gave a briefing. Ackbar is the Admiral during the Death Star Assault.
     
  7. Blagg Zear

    Blagg Zear Star Lord

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    If you want to prevent people doing high Alphastrikefire, simply add in another penalty. Let's say a weaponhealth-system replacing Ghostheat. You can Alphafire a combo of multiple weapons but each time you lower the health of your weapons making you think twice before alphastriking. This would force ppl to fire weapons separately or at least not in extreme Combos like 6x PPC
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Interesting suggestion blaag.

    Michael, "the trouble with quotes on the Internet is that they are often innacurate." -Abraham Lincoln
     
  9. Magnificent Bastard

    Magnificent Bastard Dispossessed

    LOL. SJR... nothing says "We're bored!" like starting a league in closed beta. You'd think they'd deal with the issue like the rest of us... by getting drunk and running joke builds. Leave it to clanners to turn an opportunity for fun into a chore.
     
  10. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Min/maxing is the fun part for me, the chore is grinding the cbills and exp to build what I put together in smurfys.
     
  11. Soy

    Soy Min-Max Maniac

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    I have been too busy this week to even sit down at my PC, but I have read this thread while relaxing this evening.

    I will marinate on some thoughts and give a bit of insight into what it is like playing the competitive scene successfully, in terms of balance... meta... mech design... min/max... win vs fun... social impacts of playstyles... and also philosophical thoughts. Maybe touch on the semantical things in this thread as well.

    I will try and post when I'm not so stoned later tonight when my thoughts are in order. It will most likely be a long and difficult read. I will try to be specific to only issues raised in posts.

    ps - the hitler rant parody vid in the OP, lulz
     
  12. greenbeard

    greenbeard Active Member

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    People will find anything to bitch about. Buffs and nerfs come and go; a real player perserveres and gets the job done.
     
  13. Magnificent Bastard

    Magnificent Bastard Dispossessed

    I look forward to your rant heroic epic. I am currently drunk off my ass so I understand your plight.

    [quote author=greenbeard link=topic=5427.msg35334#msg35334 date=1390635883]
    People will find anything to bitch about. Buffs and nerfs come and go; a real player perserveres and gets the job done.
    [/quote]
    Yes but such perseverance can be done with or without cheesing. So how do you get the job done? By exploiting that which is powerful at the moment or do you ignore it entirely? Take a side young padawan. Light cheese or dark cheese?
     
  14. Soy

    Soy Min-Max Maniac

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    K, lets stop right there. What this tells me is that you play with normal people. Good for you. But it also tells me that these people are aware or in contact with cheese builds. So you and your boys can't really be complete shitters. So you got that goin for you, which is nice.

    Which cuts right to my entire philosophical point when it comes to things like this thread is discussing - be true to yourself as a gamer and play how you want to play.

    [quote author=Magnificent Bastard link=topic=5427.msg35008#msg35008 date=1390368355]But I'm curious to know what the opinion of the larger community is.[/quote]

    I think the official MWO forums would be a better place to gauge 'large' pool samples. This type of discussion has been going since the beginning of beta. And since the beginning of multiplayer [online] games. But this isn't a statement to discredit this thread or anything; just saying. If you would like me to give you a general summary of this classic issue, it would be described as a perpetual tug of war that is usually won by the tryhards over time. Eventually. Regardless of whether or not the beginning/middle are dominated by masses of casuals or whatever, by the end of a games life cycle it's essentially down to the the tryhards, diehards, banksitters, nolifers, wannabes, and trolls. The hardcores, in the end, are the only ones left in any online game. You could even say offline game - go to your local arcade if it still exists. When a game gets to a certain point, honestly, the only people left playing are those who are too afraid to move on to something else, or just simply love the fucking game.

    [quote author=Magnificent Bastard link=topic=5427.msg35008#msg35008 date=1390368355]
    Obviously there are plenty of people piloting these builds so surely they must be having fun (that is why we play games after all). Or are all the cheese build pilots simply doing it because they feel they need to?[/quote]

    To attempt to speculate on the intangible things that give individual players satisfaction is one of the great mysteries of marketing and business in life, not just gaming. So it's really futile.

    Simply put, I don't think the game provides enough content for 'explorer' gamers to keep themselves out of cheese, at least until the rest of the content rolls out. I don't think the game provides enough interaction for 'social' gamers to just enjoy the same vapid experiences of defeat against cheese. I don't think there's enough shit that matters, to motivate players to reach for the stars which is what the game is about - stratification in the game only occurs as a result of Elo and timesinking for Cbills. I don't think there's enough balance in the game nor enough popularity for the game to be competitive for the real FPS squad pilot sim types of PC gamers out there.

    Now, having said that, I think it is possible to speculate about the playerbase as a whole. But I won't in this post.

    [quote author=Magnificent Bastard link=topic=5427.msg35008#msg35008 date=1390368355]
    Fight cheese with cheese whether you like it or not?[/quote]

    Your decision to make, just like everyone else, and there is no wrong or right. Cheese might be considered unethical, but the only types who take that position on principle are those who take the game serious to begin with. Do you.(?)

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35010#msg35010 date=1390374061]
    My opinion is that if one or two builds are cheese, then the game is flawed.[/quote]

    This is a school of thought within gaming, and more than that. Philosophically speaking that's your perspective on how power should be structured and balanced to facilitate what you perceive to be a compelling game system. Those structures can be dynamic and transitive as a game is both patched/developed, and the meta evolves via the playerbases maturation. I'm not saying it's bad or anything, just sayin. Old M:TG (Vintage format) is balanced around this philosophy. Essentially if new things are coming into the universe [game], then it is important to maintain what would be referred to as 'pillars' of the format which would otherwise become underpowered or underrepresented in the meta. An example of something like this in MWO would be, I dunno, if suddenly Jenners just sucked balls for XYZ reason, Jenner being a pillar of meta and overall strategy. This would probably piss off a lot of people, or possibly leave a void in the meta or actual gameplay, meaning the experience would be more predictable and shallow.

    Cheese is only a negative thing when it becomes destructive towards the spirit of the game. The intent of design. If it is causing issues with that, then it's a problem that impacts more than balance, it impacts the game's ability to draw you to play it. So really, it's bad when it becomes an ethical issue that ruins the competitive spirit, regardless of where a player is on the spectrum [of Elo].

    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35010#msg35010 date=1390374061]While it is possible to kill these high-alpha builds in an efficiency design (i.e. a design with a good balance of medium lasers and SRM4s), there's just no denying the fact that the game is much easier in one of these cheese builds. In addition to being better in both defense and offense, they are easier to pilot (fewer weapon groups than a "balanced" build). Oh, that's not to mention that cheese stacks with cheese: the more burst you have on your team, the faster you can burst down the enemy one mech at a time.[/quote]

    Now, I'm not disagreeing here or anything, but check it. The difference between an average player and a good player is something like, you know, uhhh, lets say average guys umm 50th percentile, and good player uses every advantage he can get and is like 98th percentile. Ok, well then a great player is not just 99th percentile. It's like 99.99th percentile. What I am trying to say is that a great player in a troll mech or unfamiliar build or random derpbot is gonna have a deceiving appearance if he's fighting a bunch of cheese mechs, regardless of their skill. Most of the time.

    Basically the differences the closer you get to the top between players is, regardless of what mech they are in, very subtle things. It is subtle. Have you ever listened to someone who is obviously in the top of their field or whatever? Most of the time they aren't easy to understand. Listen to an athlete talk after a game, half the time they sound retarded. But clearly they aren't. Listen to a physicist talk about some research and try and understand it. Listen to Jimi Hendrix attempt to explain how the hell he plays a guitar.

    So REGARDLESS of what mech a top player is in, they are going to be subtle things that most average players are simply not even aware of or able to replicate/understand/defeat. That's really how it is. A top player who is amazing at aim, is going to have something special to show you no matter what mech you are in and what mech they are in. A top player who is great at movement is going to show you some manuevers or positions that you never considered or saw before. A creative min/maxer is going to be the first guy out there pushing the new meta. And so on and so forth...

    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35010#msg35010 date=1390374061]What I think needs to happen is they need to drop all these crazy mechanics they've put in place to try to nerf alphas (which really just delay the time between alphas) and increase the amount of armor/health relative to your output.[/quote]

    Yes.

    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35010#msg35010 date=1390374061]The bursty shots would play more into a defensive strategy (shoot, twist, shoot, twist), and the efficient designs would just hammer away.[/quote]

    That's already how the game works. And always has. It's always been the best strategy for a burst alpha mech to do, since, well, beginning of the game. People who aren't rolling damage at this point in the game have no excuse for derping.


    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35010#msg35010 date=1390374061]The result would be that a DPSer against a bad burster would likely win (if the burster doesn't spread the damage, he will melt).[/quote]

    Again, they do. If they are good at soaking properly. If they are not good - and very very few are (exponentially less good soakers than there are crackshots in this game) - then they can still get pooped on by a bad burster. Always been that way. A bad burster is better than a bad DPSer in MWO. I would equate it to a fight between a drunk guy and a gay man. Those limp-wristed slaps don't hurt, but if the drunk guy lands a hook...

    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35010#msg35010 date=1390374061]What build is easiest to core an enemy with?
    What build is easiest to play defensive without losing out on your firepower?
    What build is easiest to pilot?

    The answer to all 3 is a high alpha build. Like I said, it could be IFS, poptart, or just a high alpha boat, but it's all cheese.
    [/quote]

    Interesting. I dunno about it being the easiest to pilot, I think the meta heavily influences the positioning seen so it's very rare that sniper or poptart or burst alpha piloting is really pushed to the limit - it rarely lasts long enough for that to be exposed as a potential weakness. I can say, personally, I didn't play at top Elo due to having killer aim, cuz in my opinion I don't. And I rarely played anything competitively besides a poptart. So take that for what it's worth...

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=Magnificent Bastard link=topic=5427.msg35019#msg35019 date=1390377936]
    I would prefer the massively OP builds to not be possible in the first place. The mechlab gives us waaaaaay too much freedom.[/quote]

    Agreed. However, it makes up for lack of content. Sorta had to be done.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=ReconSaint link=topic=5427.msg35052#msg35052 date=1390410457]
    Teamwork is cheese, when people run that, it shits on every mech.

    But you dont see people running THAT all the time now do you? :p
    [/quote]

    Depends on your Elo.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=scromboid link=topic=5427.msg35059#msg35059 date=1390411616]
    I do not think the term 'cheese build' should really apply to some of what you are saying.[/quote]

    Semantics.

    [quote author=scromboid link=topic=5427.msg35059#msg35059 date=1390411616]The one thing I believe this game does correctly is focus on skill.[/quote]

    Only if you want it to.

    [quote author=scromboid link=topic=5427.msg35059#msg35059 date=1390411616]Everyone has their own 'best build' or 'favorite type' that they can excel at and others where, no matter whose build they try, they fail at.[/quote]

    I think a lot of that is about what weapons people are interested in mastering. I tend to think of stuff like PPC Gauss etc as iconic staples of BT weaponry. So iconic or pillars of weaponry are going to be more prevalent.

    [quote author=scromboid link=topic=5427.msg35059#msg35059 date=1390411616]Take one of Soy's original builds - the CTF-3D poptart or the HGN-733 poptart. Both of these guys have big weaknesses if you know how to exploit them. Neither one can get out of its own way when trying to scramble, first off. Chasing these things down is laughable in a medium or fast heavy and has often brought tears to my eyes. I can remember breaking into a line of these milk drinkers from behind with my CTF-1X and giggling to myself as they scatter like roaches with five broken legs.[/quote]

    You fool!

    [quote author=scromboid link=topic=5427.msg35059#msg35059 date=1390411616]The other major flaw is tactics. They usually have a limited view of the battlefield what with staring at the back end of a mountain and all. Jump, cliff, jump, cliff. It reminds me of the horror movies when the lighting flashes and the monster is 50m away, then it goes dark... lighting again, 20m dark.... lightning again and HES KILLING YOU!! It takes great situational awareness to play this robot and not get flanked. Just because you are good at it does not mean it is easy, do not forget. Lastly, if you know where to shoot, you can cripple one of these things in a few shots. HGN? Right torso. Most CTF? Right torso. I cannot tell you how many 'half a pop tarts' I have left scuttling on the battlefield because they were impotent after losing their right side.[/quote]

    Situational awareness is everything, in my opinion. Don't win by hitting spacebar, win by using information better than your enemy.

    2B CONTINUED BRAH...
     
  15. Soy

    Soy Min-Max Maniac

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    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Actually they should be some of the best, since they are most likely not highly mobile, and if they spare a bit of their defense capabilities.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35164#msg35164 date=1390491848]
    I don't call them cheese. I call them crutches. Don't care, play what you want. In the end it is the pilot not the build.
    [/quote]

    Semantics. Here's how I see it:

    Cheese is more noun or adjective, crutch is more verb. But yeah pretty interchangable.

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    [quote author=Lokesh link=topic=5427.msg35061#msg35061 date=1390412017]Real cheese arrives when something designed to be fun for PvEers ends up being stupid-broken in PvP.[/quote]

    No, imbalance occurs out of a lack of foresight. Regardless of the game. Unintended consequences that players learn to exploit. Exploit is a strong word to use, by the way. I'm using it in the literal sense. Personally I wouldn't use it, but, I think it's the easiest layman term to use in this case. In gaming, an exploit is usually, you know, for example you got 101 tons on your Atlas or are in a spot on top of a cliff that only max JJ spider can get on, etc. A gaming exploit does, ofc, arise out of a unintended consequences. If it is accepted by the population or the devs then it will become legitimate and not an exploit ofc.

    [quote author=Lokesh link=topic=5427.msg35061#msg35061 date=1390412017]I see plenty of people dying to pinpoint alpha simply because they stare at the target and let the other guy pop three alphas into them. The guy who twists and moves perpendicularly always wins over the guy going straight. Maybe maneuvering is cheese?
    [/quote]

    Yes (lol).

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    [quote author=skidog2k3 link=topic=5427.msg35067#msg35067 date=1390412461]
    Learn how to make the cheese.... Learn how to eat it... no more cheese.

    Sorry, it's one of those days, but my point is a valid one. There is no ultimate build. every build has weaknesses. Be a Mechwarrior, figure out what those weaknesses are, and eat the cheese... just as long as you are not Lactose intolerant, you will be a better MechWarrior for it.
    [/quote]

    Good attitude.


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    [quote author=enileph link=topic=5427.msg35139#msg35139 date=1390468433]
    Always Min/Max, always....
    ...I would hate to be teamed up with some itiot that decides to pilot some atlas with half armor and only a few SLas just cause he feels like roleplaying some broken mech, or some self-proclaimed paladin who decide to use less weapons cause it is unfair.
    [/quote]

    This is a limited perspective. Let me explain.

    Min/maxing is about increasing the odds that you are going to experience things that you enjoy in the game. In other words, philosophically speaking, if that RPer had some sort of vision or whatever about the type of mech he wanted to play and the type of results he wanted, and built then strolled around in a half armor Atlas with a couple of SLs and typed out RP shit or whatever, then if that is what he wanted and the results are what he wants then he is min/maxing.

    Fact is, most people are at least a little bit interested in arbitrary wins and losses since it validates their time and effort spent in some collectively accepted way, in addition to making their grind slightly faster. Thus being more efficient and racking up wins instead of losses is conducive to min/max building as most of us are familiar with it.

    A true min/maxer is concerned with getting the most fun out of the game, and if that is through wins then their mech designs (and attitude/approach) will most likely reflect that. But the minimizers, the losers, are the people who lose focus somehow on what they enjoy in the game and start concerning themselves with distractions or let their playstyle willingly be molded into something else.

    [quote author=Magnificent Bastard link=topic=5427.msg35149#msg35149 date=1390475898]
    You realize there is a difference between min/max and "cheese"... right? You can min/max any mech and for the most part they'll all be decent builds (although there are a few chassis that are a bit lackluster). But cheese builds are the min/max of the min/max.
    [/quote]

    Yeah basically. I mean, I love min/maxing derp builds. Think of themed builds or whatever. I mean I can sit there and hammer out a Death's Knell or AWS-9M build or RVN-4X build for hours, and you know it's not ever seeing the light outside the lab in a competitive match.

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    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35170#msg35170 date=1390493942]
    You see we are forced to take it out of context because MWO doesn't have 1v1, which in the end is the only really true test of "cheese".
    [/quote]

    Errr...

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    [quote author=Michael link=topic=5427.msg35177#msg35177 date=1390496143]If people aren't running 12 HGN/VTR/3D deck anymore it is because A) weight limits imposed by whatever league they are in or B) because they are so fucking bored of the two or three viable poptart chassis that they decide to play something else.

    I know pilots who run around in nothing but HGNs and poptart (whether 12 man or PUGs). It is simply all they know and all they know how to do. How boring must it be to only be good at one single thing instead of good at many different mechs and roles. It must be boring as shit to simply "space bar, aim, click (rinse and repeat)".
    [/quote]

    B), when outside of competitive drops. Otherwise they are boring people to play with, I'm not going to lie.

    And yes, turreting with spacebar while eating a sandwich and watching Ally McBeal is boring as shit if you are a normal human being and not a zombie.

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    [quote author=Magnificent Bastard link=topic=5427.msg35179#msg35179 date=1390496918]
    Yeah you're winning but surely you're bored out of your mind if all you're doing is poptarting? I don't know. Maybe some people actually have fun doing that for hours every night... one man's trash and all that.

    Hell it would be different if there was something to "grind" toward in MWO but there isn't. We don't have a true metagame. The cheese builds are winning for the sake of winning.
    [/quote]

    Like anything, it gets boring. Faster than it should cuz it's a shallow playstyle if you aren't mixing it up.

    Of course there is merit (if you desire it) in the notion that people are winning for sake of winning. Yeah, there really isn't much else to do. Again, personally, I don't judge or speculate on peoples motivations.

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    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35205#msg35205 date=1390504592]
    You'll find out pretty quick that life in this mech isn't all it's cracked up to be when you get rolled over because nobody was keeping that fast mech off of you.[/quote]

    A great pilot in a poptart relishes a single light isolated on him. Just sayin.

    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35205#msg35205 date=1390504592]I personally love solo dropping. There is rarely rampant ego's. You get real and true mech driving practice. You will also see lots and lots of different builds. You'll also see that when the face rolls happens, and it will on occasion, it isn't because the other team had more "cheese" builds than you. It will be because they had a premade that was working well together and covering each others weakness.[/quote]

    From this statement I gather that, when you are actually solo dropping, your Elo is not very high... this could be related to what mechs you are soloing with as opposed to grouping. No disrespect intended.

    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35205#msg35205 date=1390504592]Now if you think about it only the Poptard of all these "cheese" builds is still prevalent...
    [/quote]

    One of the few things I take pride in about this game. :D

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    [quote author=Michael link=topic=5427.msg35212#msg35212 date=1390506242]
    About a year and a half ago I wrote a post somewhere about introducing power requirements for each weapon and a mech only having so much power available at any given time. Like in the books where someone tried to fire their beam weapons and their gauss all at once and the computer had to cycle them due to the enormous power requirements. This would eliminate most, if not all, the front loaded damage tarts. This would elimintate a lot of the cheese by controlling the flow of cheese without actually nerfing the weapon itself.


    Just food for thought.
    [/quote]

    Not a response to your direct examples, but rather the spirit of what you're saying:

    I've always said I think the more powerful a weapon is, the less prevalent it should be in game. By this I mean the more potential a weapon has to dominate, the less people should be using it. You could take that one of two ways. Either the best players have access to the best equipment, or the worst players have access to the best equipment. Or it could be a handicap system and thus the opposite, etc. I think this would have a direct influence in the ability for cheese builds to piss in too many cereal bowls so to speak.

    Fact is, imbalance must be discovered by players before it can perceived as over[under]powered in the first place. SLs could be buffed to do 9000 damage each shot next patch, but if theoretically no player put a SL on a mech, then it might be a couple days, a week, maybe a month, who knows, before the imbalance reaches critical mass to where it's really impacting the ability of the general population to have fun without running into it over and over or being forced to build it themselves to stay afloat.

    Essentially this game has ZERO risk vs reward and that mechanic could be implemented to stymie those unworthy [whether the baddies or the pros] of wielding such cheese in sheer numbers. Think Repair/Rearm, with values tweaked towards limiting the amount of scrubs using cheese builds. It could even get detailed and not just arbitrary - say, an AC/20 on a Jager costs more to repair than it would on a Raven 4X, etc.

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    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35235#msg35235 date=1390511645]
    Buff health[...]
    [/quote]

    Again, yes.

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    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35246#msg35246 date=1390516044]
    I'm fine with the game getting more complex, but the changes should be visible on the surface, and preferably not convoluted and mathy, but rather more about playstyle and niche.
    [/quote]

    Complex is fine.

    Arbitrary or convoluted (Hand of God) cuz theres no real clever solutions is, typically, really fucking stupid (but not necessarily bad). See: ghost heat

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    [quote author=Michael link=topic=5427.msg35263#msg35263 date=1390522977]The pinnacle of of pure skill and awesome (/sarcasm).[...]

    [...]HOLD SPACE BAR
    ZOOM WHILE RISING UP
    AIM ON TARGET
    LET GO OF SPACE BAR
    CLICK LEFT MOUSE BUTTON AT PINNACLE OF JUMP
    CACKLE WITH GLEE AS YOU BREATH THROUGH THE MOUTH
    MAKE SURE TO TYPE "GGCLOSE" AS YOU SCRATCH YOUR NECK
    [/quote]

    There's so much more to it man.

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    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35287#msg35287 date=1390573550]
    Heh, yeah. I wonder how many new players have no idea about what ghost heat does to them.
    [/quote]

    The majority of them.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=skribs link=topic=5427.msg35294#msg35294 date=1390581565]
    My issue is we* can tweak numbers all we want, in the end math will decide what's best.
    [/quote]

    No; meta determines what is best. Meta is determined by more than math. Anecdotal evidence, peer pressure, trends, aesthetics, speculation about future game changes, and rogue build/tactics and their potential. But people are smart and obviously math helps cut right to the point in meta, doesn't it.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    [quote author=Michael link=topic=5427.msg35300#msg35300 date=1390584307]My concern is that the player base has declined to such a level that doing this would be counter productive to the sustainability of the game as all the little assault kiddies would be sitting around with their thumbs up their butts waiting for a match while the rest of the people are dropping regularly.

    Players expect games to change to meet their needs, not the other way around.

    So say we all.
    [/quote]

    Critical strike. The games a boring piece of shit.
     
  16. The Verge

    The Verge Moderator Staff Member

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    I hate to mis-quote you, but only the player can play the game for fun, or build their mech for fun (earlier quote)

    So, I guess my only question is, what makes this game fun, if not cheese or Min/Max potential of the mechs?
     
  17. FuzzyBunny

    FuzzyBunny MechSpecs Addict

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    Soy,

    Great views. Love them. On the comment of my ELO it's perfectly fine with me, though I tend to think it's is high enough. I've dropped a couple matches against you solo, and more than I'd like to count against SJ when they were paying a lot. Goons, DV8, I've seen pretty much all of them at some time or another.

    In any case it's how I enjoy the game. It's most humorous when I drop against some good players in a four man and I'm stuck with some new player in a trail mech.

    For the record I've used "cheese" build, and I use none optimal builds. I just play what I want to play at the time.

    In reference rp the light on poptard I agree. I'm more referring to the fast and heavy hitting medium or heavy mech. Something quick enough and agile enough to get on you yet still had hitting enough to hurt.
     
  18. FuzzyBunny

    FuzzyBunny MechSpecs Addict

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    Damn my phone and it's spelling...
     
  19. Soy

    Soy Min-Max Maniac

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    Only you can decide. If you asked me personally? Well, in retrospect, and I mean no disrespect by this (it's not an indictment towards anyone), I think what makes MWO more (or less) fun is the people you choose to play with. Cuz the end game comes quick. The content is explored fast. The mech design process is sometimes shallow if playing the meta. So, imo, the number one thing that extends a players enjoyment in this game is going to be finding good friends/associates/clanmates to play with.

    [quote author=FuzzyBunny link=topic=5427.msg35344#msg35344 date=1390662841]
    Soy,

    Great views. Love them. On the comment of my ELO it's perfectly fine with me, though I tend to think it's is high enough. I've dropped a couple matches against you solo, and more than I'd like to count against SJ when they were paying a lot. Goons, DV8, I've seen pretty much all of them at some time or another.

    In any case it's how I enjoy the game. It's most humorous when I drop against some good players in a four man and I'm stuck with some new player in a trail mech.

    For the record I've used "cheese" build, and I use none optimal builds. I just play what I want to play at the time.

    In reference rp the light on poptard I agree. I'm more referring to the fast and heavy hitting medium or heavy mech. Something quick enough and agile enough to get on you yet still had hitting enough to hurt.
    [/quote]

    I only highlighted that (did it earlier in the first quote as well) to validate the fact that I know what I am talking about. AND what you are talking about. To show how a knowledgable player is able to read a lot out of a very small amount of info. Maybe you are in top Elo when you play with your friends cuz you get into tryhard mode then or something with your best mech, I dunno. I was just using the little info there to show how an informed mind can glean a lot out of a little.

    Yours is, in my opinion, the correct attitude. Play what you want to play when you want to play it, and if others are influencing that then it's worth considering if that is what you want. Nobody is an island, this is a multiplayer game, but it is important to be true to yourself. Both when you are alone and with others. If that is beneficial to a 'serious' group or detrimental depends on the way you approach playing with them and with what mechs/attitude, etc.
     
  20. skribs

    skribs Min-Max Maniac

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    Uh oh! I agree with some of what Soy posted! I need a new therapist, I guess…(kidding, kidding)...

    Regarding official forums: while that may be true, I think this community is made up of a larger portion of min/maxers, and the official forums are made up of trolls, fanboys, etc. etc. I’ve always liked 3rd party forums more than O-boards.

    Regarding satisfaction vs. content: you’re right, but I think it’s more than that. Content doesn’t necessarily have to be game modes or maps. Exploring new builds could be considered content (and is, IMO, the most fun thing about MW), but if 95% of the builds are inferior, then that content is removed.

    This is essentially what I’m talking about. Let’s take a look at a few of the lights (because I love lights). Spider 5V vs. Spider 5D vs. Raven 3L. Essentially, what you have here is a bad variant (the Spider 5V) which is only fun because I feel like I’m flying a TIE Fighter when I fly it. Spider 5D is unique in that it has ECM and JJ, but usually I only get kills in it if the enemy is bad at shooting. Raven 3L has no JJ, but its combination of firepower and ECM make it incredibly deadly. So why do we have the other Ravens if the 3L is the only good variant? Why do we have the other Spiders if the 5D is the only one that’s special? Why do we even have Spiders?

    The build explorer in me says we have them so we can come up with new and interesting builds. However, the min/maxer in me says we have them because we need so many lights to unlock the next tier of skills.

    Regarding players in the 50% vs 99% aisle (I know I’m using that wrong), when I talk about balance I assume factory conditions aside from any variables I toss out. In other words, I’m not talking about 50% players vs. 99% players. I’m talking 50v50 or 99v99. The problem I have right now is that the issue of burst vs. sustained damage isn’t a factor in most FPS games – it’s more a factor in MMORPGs. In these games, you have healers which bump up the health pool of your team, and whether to go burst or sustained depends on what enemy healers are present (do you try to out-DPS their HPS, or do you try to make them run out of mana?).

    In MWO, there is no healing, so to speak. So the question is, what do you get for having an efficient design over a bursty design? The bursty design is going to do a lot of damage quickly and then slow down. If this is enough to kill the efficient player before he slows down, then the efficient player will never come out on top.

    By easiest to pilot, I mean this. Aside from Machine Guns and Flamers, you don’t have anything that has enough rate of fire to improve accuracy. Nothing provides a constant enough stream of firepower to let you constantly adjust your aim. I remember watching a documentary on helicopters where one of the gunners said over 2000 RPM you actually increase your percentage of hits because it’s so easy to stay on target.

    So when you compare an AC/5 against an AC/20, for example, you have more time to line up your shot between shots with the AC/20. You have a smaller penalty for taking longer to line up your shot. If it takes you a second after you’re lined up, you’ve lost 20% of your DPS with the AC/20, and you’ve lost 40% of your DPS with the AC/5. This might affect high-end players less, but at the lower and mid levels of play, it is a huge factor.

    Personally, I think more overpowered builds need to be in place. Give us build explorers something else to explore.

    I don’t know much about BT outside of this game. I played MW2 when I was a kid, but I really cheesed there (set up a group of enemies with no weapons that I could steamroll). I think a lot of people here on MechSpecs think the Mechlab is iconic of MW games, and wish there was more purpose to it than simply “how many of X can I fit on here?”

    This is a good point, but again – I assume laboratory conditions, which means situational awareness isn’t a factor comparing Build X to Build Y.
     
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