USER BUILD: Dranozir's CTF-IM Ilya Muromets "Rule of Three"

Discussion in 'Mech Build and System Tests' started by Michael, Nov 24, 2013.

  1. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=54&l=214447356d6c08dd0fca8abc2055df7836f0d25b

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2ZOMQ36uq4

    This mech was originally posted by Dranozir, with the combat drop being done by IanSane

    RECOMMENDED ROLE: Mid Range Sniper / Melee Fire Support
    TOTAL PRICE: 7,195,000 cbills + 5,250 MC
    DIFFICULTY LEVEL: Beginner to Intermediate

    STRENGTHS:
    • Decent level alpha strike rating of 30
    • Decent mix of ranges due to the AC10 max range of 1350m
    • XL engine gives moderately good speed
    • Exceptionally low heat ratio with heat efficiency of 1.66
    DRAWBACKS:
    • XL engines are extremely expensive and vulnerable
    • Primary weapon system (AC10) is your only weapon system; no backups
    • Completely ammo dependent so running out is a bad thing
    • Due to the sheet amount of ammo you are asking for ammo explosions
    • Very weak leg armor (roughly 50% of max on each leg) as well as arms
    This mech is a beast in the right hands. You have 105 shots of ammo to spend between your three AC10s so that is essentially 30 shots per AC10. IanSane claimed to have done a 1200 damage round with this even though the math adds up to 1050 max damage potential with Dranozir's loadout. Maybe ammo explosions or something else helped increase his max damage potential.

    The mech runs incredibly heat efficient so you can really pour on the pain when chain firing these AC10s. You can even use a macro to speed up the chain fire process although I haven't yet build one for it specifically.
    A couple of things that you really need to pay attention to though (whether you are driving one of these or facing one of these) is the combination of ammo layout and the XL engine. You have ammo spread out all over the mech; legs, CT and head. So a critical shot in any of lose locations is going to blow off the legs or core the engine out. This is not a mech that you want to take into the middle of a brawl with an Atlas.

    The best advice that I can give, after having tested this mech myself and with a few other players, is that you want to keep this mech on the outskirts of combat and pour your lead INTO the melee rather than being in the middle of it shooting your way out.

    Your speed is good but not great so you need to make sure you are exactly where you want to be before you commit to engagements as you will not be able to turn and run if things go to hell in a handbasket.
    The final weakness is the lack of secondary weapon systems. If your ammo runs dry you are a stick, if your AC10s are blown off you are a stick and don't think for a second a skilled player won't be looking to reduce your threat potential by blowing off those weapons. Hell you might even do it by mistake while you are torso twisting to keep the enemy from your precious XL.

    This build can be discussed here: Dranozir's Rule of Three
     
  2. Cpt Chattahah

    Cpt Chattahah Legendary Member

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    He is the king of Arty/Air strikes. :D

    Ran this for a bit tonight. Still like the triple LBX a little more. However, you get more damage out of this build for sure.
     
  3. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 01001101 01001111 01000100 Staff Member

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    That Arty and Air strike really added up on the damage ;)

    still, pretty awesome build. Regarding the commentary though, are UAC5s really nerfed that hard? It seems to me that with their 1.5 s cooldown and 2 shots of 5 they still have higher DPS than the AC10, and if you take jamming into account, They still deal a higher amount of total DPS (6.67-20% from the jamming = 5.336) for less tonnage (thus better survivability).

    Maybe a Rule of Three vs Chainsaw video demonstrating it would be nice (if you thought you had free time on your hands :p)
     
  4. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    That's not how maths work my friend ;)

    20% is not the DPS loss, but the probability of jamming per shot and per gun.
    With three guns the DPS loss is 33% with one gun jamming (~38% chance on the first shot), 67% with two guns jamming (~10% chance) and, well, 100% if all three guns jam (~1% chance).
     
  5. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 01001101 01001111 01000100 Staff Member

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    ah yes, I was tired. So 20-(20*0.38*0.33)-(20*0.10*0.67)-20*0.01 in that case (subtracting every general chance of DPS loss from the base max DPS of 3 UAC5s firing double shots) gives: 15.952 average DPS, which is still higher than 3 AC10s which has 3x4.0 = 12 DPS.
    Or did I screw up somewhere again? ;)
     
  6. Sassafras

    Sassafras MechSpecs Addict

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    You have to look at the UAC5's total cooldown to get an average DPS.

    The regular UAC5 cooldown is 1.5s, so if you are double tapping, the cooldown is essentially 0.75s.
    If you jam, then the cooldown becomes 5 seconds.

    Since there is a 20% chance of jammimg, that means 80% of the time your cooldown is 0.75 seconds, and 20% of the time your cooldown is 5 seconds.

    So, your average cooldown becomes 0.75*0.8 + 5*0.2 = 1.6 seconds, and your DPS per UAC5 is 5/1.6 = 3.125, which is less than the standard AC5.

    Now, if all you're worried about is burst damage, then your DPS is extremely high for a limited amount of time, and will be 5/0.75 = 6.67 DPs per UAC5 until you jam.
     
  7. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 01001101 01001111 01000100 Staff Member

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    I'm glad I chose to study chemistry and not maths :)
    I didn't know that jams always lasted 5 seconds, I've seen some jams wear off fairly early.
     
  8. IanSane

    IanSane Advanced Member

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    Instead of hurting your brains with math I created a little test video. Its dry as hell but very informative. I think what we are most interested in is time to kill so we shouldn't get wrapped too much into DPS. The higher critical chance of some weapons plus their ability to strip off armor seems to negate some of the higher dps advantages of certain builds/weapons

    Location:
    Forest Colony (Heat Neutral)

    Task:
    Givin 3 attempts, test Time to Kill and Heat Generation while attacking a set target (Atlas) using 5 popular autocannon dominant builds.

    Builds:
    4x AC2 and 2 Medium Lasers
    4x AC5 and 2 Medium Lasers (with and without Macro)
    3x UAC5 and 2 Medium Lasers (with and without Macro)
    3x AC10
    3x LBX10 and 3 Medium Lasers

    GMWMDpM-szQ
     
  9. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 01001101 01001111 01000100 Staff Member

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    Shouldn't that basically deserve it's own System Specs thread? Still, thanks a lot for the comparison Ian, don't have the C-Bills to test it out myself (or the willingness to spend them on it if I can fail at math doing it).
     
  10. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    The video sort of invalidates the test as you are adding beam weapons into it.
     
  11. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 01001101 01001111 01000100 Staff Member

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    though beam weapons will usually be added realistically anyway in a close range fight. only from distances > 540m (or 350 is you are smart and don't fire MLs for shit damage past 350m) they're invalidating but in that case 'only hitting CT' would also be irrelevant as the LBX10 has spread.

    I think it's good to add them in, if builds can mount MLs (which the triple AC10 has trouble with) that is an advantage that can be exploited in a fight.
     
  12. SAI Peregrinus

    SAI Peregrinus Advanced Member

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    You are all over complicating things. Just find the effective cooldown of the two weapons:
    AC/5: 1.5 seconds
    UAC/5: 1.5 seconds / 2 (double tap) * 0.80 (80% chance to not jam) + 5 seconds (unjam timer) * 0.2 (20% chance to jam) = 1.6 seconds

    Damage on both is 5.
    So AC/5 does 3.333... DPS, UAC/5 does 3.125 DPS if double-tapping.

    If you fire the UACs without double-tap, they're identical to the AC/5s, just heavier and taking up more crit slots. If you use the double-tap you cut your long-term DPS to increase your short-term DPS. Use the double-tap to get a killing blow in a brawl, when jumpsniping, etc. Don't use it in a sustained DPS situation.
     
  13. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    This build uses AC10s :p
     
  14. IanSane

    IanSane Advanced Member

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    These are system builds realistic tests and I think it goes a long way these aren't JUST autocannon tests they are realistic tests. For example yes we all know 3x AC10s out damage 3x AC5s but due to the extreme weight of the AC10s the AC5s narrow the gap thanks to their medium lasers. The AC2 cannot use lasers without overheating, a major drawback so that allows the other ACs to again narrow the gap. The LBX does have lasers which allows it to lead all in time to kill even though theoretically at that range it has the same damage as AC10s. We can assume that the UAC and AC5 have identical damage and DPS without double tapping the UACs which is why there are 2 versions in here, the macro and no macro. I have created videos showing the differences of the AC2, UAC and AC5 already (can be found on my page) during those tests no lasers were used so in order to make it a more realistic usable build I added them here based on actual builds on mechspecs; "The Rule of Three" "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" etc so this is as much about build comparison as it is gun comparison.
     
  15. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    However you wanna spin it.
     
  16. IanSane

    IanSane Advanced Member

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    Task:
    Givin 3 attempts, test Time to Kill and Heat Generation while attacking a set target (Atlas) using 5 popular autocannon dominant builds.

    Not spin ya ornery ole buzzard :p
    FINE I'll do another set using just cannons PBBBBBBBBT
     
  17. Excalibaard

    Excalibaard 01001101 01001111 01000100 Staff Member

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    I've stated my arguments above and agree with Ian that including MLs is actually good for the comparison :x Still, doesn't this comparison (and the entire discussion regarding it) be in it's own [System Test] Autocannon Based Builds Comparison ?
     
  18. IanSane

    IanSane Advanced Member

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    I'm sure it probably would but this was where the question was raised so I put it here. Much ado about nothin really people were curious which made me curious so I dabbled :)
     
  19. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    Save it. I'm an eagle not a buzzard. Peasent!!!

    I was just saying you guys were talking about cannons.
     
  20. SAI Peregrinus

    SAI Peregrinus Advanced Member

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    Well, both the buteos (buzzards) and the eagles are part of the Accipitridae. Since you're North American you can either be a golden eagle or a bald eagle, and since the golden is the only true eagle I'll assume you're one of them. (genus Aquila, as opposed to the bald eagle being a fish-eagle of genus haliaeetus and therefore more closely related to the kites than the other eagles.)

    I therefore applaud your typing skills, none of the golden eagles I've known could type, most just tried to puncture my glove with their talons and would have made a mess out of any keyboard.
     

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