USER BUILD: Michael's CPLT-C1 Catapult "Grimm Variant"

Discussion in 'Mech Build and System Tests' started by Michael, Aug 13, 2013.

  1. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=12&l=4d78347ce12b851421f8bd48906a8475d17375c7

    Above is the PUB/PUG Version of the Grimm Variant CPLT-C1. This is what we used on the field to test our missile theories.

    A lot of people lately have been complaining about Missiles and how Hit Detection has really screwed them over; as of August 13, 2013 (when this video was made). Well we asked around and found a commonality in that a lot of boaters are GROUP firing all their missiles at one time. Our data contributors claimed that some of them were having less than 40% of their missiles actually register damage and some people claimed that less than 20% of their missiles were registering.

    Wow, Hit Detection is big time screwed for missile boaters!

    The problem is that if you are launching 60 missiles at a target in a group, and that group misses, then you just wasted 60 missiles. Rather than trying to go for high damage group attacks with missiles people should start chain firing their missiles and play the game of "Law of Averages".

    What we mean is that if you chain fire your 2 launchers 15 missiles may miss but 15 may hit and that is certainly better than an alpha group fire of 30 missiles and having all 30 miss. Yes?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwpl_YtL16g

    RECOMMENDED ROLE: Indirect Fire Support
    TOTAL PRICE: 14,696,895 cbills
    DIFFICULTY LEVEL: Basic to Intermediate

    WARNING:
    If you have issues with HSR then use this build with caution. Hit Detection can screw you.

    STRENGTHS:
    • Good amount of speed for a heavy! Allows you to move into position quickly as well as continually shift your firing position in order to react to enemy movements or back away from CQBs.
    • Having jumpjets allows this mech to utilize vertical movement to secure optimal firing positions for your LRM support. Sometimes having the high ground really helps when bringing the rain!
    • Good mix of Indirect Fire Support and Direct Fire capabilities. It is possible to fight at close range with this mech, using the medium lasers, although it isn't optimized for this type of combat.
    • Having TAG allows this mech to cut through ECM bubbles and engage enemy targets with the LRMs from range. BAP also helps with negating ECM fields when enemies close allowing PUB/Allies to engage the ECM'd mech.
    • 418 points of armor make this a tough mech to kill. Even with your missile pods (arms) blown off you are still capable of adding to the fight whether it be through your TAG, your MLas or even your BAP!
    • Extremely easy for beginner and intermediate pilots to use. Once you learn the basic tricks (how to TAG with a macro, how to position yourself and how to chain fire missiles, you can rock out 500+ damage matches easily. Advanced pilots can do 800+ damage in a match.
    DRAWBACKS:
    • The XL engine does tend to be a weak point, especially when you get ZOMGWTF Swarmed with light mechs. Once your torso armor begins to evaporate you are at an extreme risk of going pop. However, being that you are indirect fire support you shouldn't be in the vanguard anyways.
    • Close Quarters Battles tend to be touch and go with this mech as it wasn't really designed for direct confrontation with the enemy. The Medium Lasers are more of a backup/secondary system. While it is possible to kill enemy mechs up close (as per the video) it should be avoided unless you are out of LRM ammo or being swarmed.
    • High Damage Salvos (group firing) is seeing reduced damage across the board due to how poorly Hit Detection is currently working in game.
    • Relatively expensive for newer players to assemble being that it costs over 14,500,000 cbills (due to all the upgrades required plus the XL engine). On top of that there are the cost of the modules bringing this mech over 20,000,000 cbills.
    TIPS AND RECOMMENDATIONS:
    • Pilots are having to learn to chain fire/stagger their launcher fire in order to maximize potential damaging salvos. Some matches can see 1000+ missiles fired only resulting in 300 or so damage. It is imperative that you chain fire your launchers.
    • It is recommended that you do so against targets without AMS. This reason for this is AMS can negate a big portion of your LRM fire so might as well maximize damage potential and mitigate counter measures by firing on non-AMS carrying mechs.
    This build can be discussed here: Michael's Grimm Variant


    [size=8pt]NOTICE: Due to the fact that hit-detection is totally random; any and all claims made by the op are based upon empirical evidence and not quantifiable evidence. Tests were done over several drops and, while the numbers differed, the overall results are the same. The OP accepts no responsibility if your results differ due to the fact that several factors affect the functionality of hit-detection; ping variation, grouped versus individual weapons fire, server load, a number, a letter, a symbol, a capital letter, the blood of a virgin, what day of the week it is and whether there has been a full moon in the last two weeks.
     
  2. Jaxx the Elder

    Jaxx the Elder Space Pimp

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    Really interesting and very clear advice thanks

    One question if I may? Does this mean that launching LRMs in ripple(s) if your Mech hasn't enough tubes to fire all of that launcher's missiles in one go is, in effect, getting the same benefit you advocate for chain fire?

    And if that's true, how does that effect the numerous LRM builds that advocate downsizing launchers to fir within the number of tubes in a slot?

    Ok that may be two questions really - but I had the one tube in the launcher............
     
  3. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    I don't have the time to reply right now, but to make it short: I disagree.

    There is something I don't understand though: how exactly chainfiring is supposed to lower HRS failure, and generally hit registration problem?
     
  4. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    I don't know if the server counts them as a single launch (even though they discharge in ripples) or if they are counted as individual launches. That might be good information to know though right now with Hit Detection being what it is.

    [quote author=Chrisoldwiz link=topic=2874.msg16996#msg16996 date=1376403906]
    And if that's true, how does that effect the numerous LRM builds that advocate downsizing launchers to fir within the number of tubes in a slot?
    [/quote]

    That depends on the answer above. Although it is a good idea to always match the number of missiles to the number of tubes on a mech (during the course of normal play, you know when Hit Detection is working right?).

    [quote author=epikt link=topic=2874.msg17011#msg17011 date=1376408511]
    I don't have the time to reply right now, but to make it short: I disagree.

    There is something I don't understand though: how exactly chainfiring is supposed to lower HRS failure, and generally hit registration problem?
    [/quote]

    Well, you are entitled to disagree

    Normally I would disagree with myself but Hit Detection, at least for me, is so bad right now that this is the only way around it to make missile weapons viable again (until they fix it).

    Here is how this method helps mitigate crap Hit Detection; It is called "The Law of Averages". In MWO the Law of Averages basically states that "Sooner or later, some weapon, somewhere, somehow is going to hit and do damage. The more weapons fire you can throw at a target the better your odds of actually registering damage".

    The MWO Law of Averages put into practice....

    Attack Method #1: Fire All Zee Missiles For Maximum Damage


    You fire 30 missiles and they don't register damage you have wasted 30 missiles yes?
    You fire another 30 missiles and they don't register damage you have wasted 60 missiles yes?
    You fire another 30 missiles and they finally register (or at least partially). Yay finally.

    TOTAL: 90 missiles fired. < 30 missiles hit and registered damage. 30% efficiency.

    Now take that same 90 missiles and divide it into 6 groups of 15.

    Attack Method #2: Constant Barrage Missile Fire


    Fire a single launcher and 15 missiles don't resgister? Ok, we wasted 15 missiles
    Fire a single launcher and 15 missiles don't register? Ok we wasted 30 missiles
    Fire a single launcher and 15 missiles REGISTER? Ok finally some damage
    Fire a single launcher and 15 missiles don't register? Ok we lost 45 missiles.
    Fire a single launcher and 15 missiles REGISTER? Yay more damage
    Fire a single launcher and 15 missiles REGISTER? Yay more damage

    TOTAL: 90 missiles fired. < 45 missiles hit and registered damage. 50% efficiency

    Hit detection is so crap right now that it is impossible to get a clear idea what percentage of your missiles will register and what percentage won't. As stated in the video, people have reported getting as low as 16% damage on their missiles but most are finding about 30% efficiency on their missiles. These are matches where 1080 missiles are fired (the entire ammo supply) and only 300-350 damage was done. Some of that was even done with the MLasers.

    When they fix Hit Detection so that all the missiles register (assuming they hit the target) then this method will go right out the window because you will want to land as much volley damage on a target as possible but for now, this works.

    Try it and see.
     
  5. Leonhart

    Leonhart Advanced Member

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    YYYEEESSSS!! Finally proof, at least for the meta, that launching 239584725982 missiles at once isnt the best plan! No one ever believed me!

    My Pretty Baby launches her 3 LRM 10s in 3 waves and she always out performed kills and damage wise than my other LRM builds that fired everything at once.
     
  6. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    Invalid demonstration.

    YOU decided that in the first case 1 out of 3 salvos would hit, and that in the second case 3 out of 6 would. Where those ratios come from?
    YOU decided that the first method would have 30% (33% actually) efficiency and the second 50%.

    Except if there is something in the code making hit registration for large salvos more broken than for small one, there is absolutely no reason missiles behave like you said.
     
  7. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    Dude, go and play with it yourself then come back here and tell me I'm wrong.

    I gave you arbitrary numbers because there IS no set way to demonstrate accurate hit detection. In fact the system is so broken PGI is even having a hard time tracking it down and making it work right. Some days it is good and some days it isn't.

    So YOU can go and test out both systems, which I have already done, then come back here and apologize. You are so busy looking at the trees you are forgetting the forest. The SYSTEM works, forget the specifics of the numbers. You can't min/max a broken system you can only bandaid it till they fix it.

    I like chocolates and flowers. :p
     
  8. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    If you say it works better in game, I believe you. I don't play enough LRM boat to make a counter expertise anyway, and I don't have enough friends playing the game to secure a controlled test environment.
    (it makes me think: does the testing ground suffer the same hit registration problem?)

    All I'm saying is your demonstration here is invalid.
    Sorry I'm kind of a maths mind, but I'm just trying to understand.
     
  9. Michael

    Michael Grand Poobah Staff Member

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    No, because your enemy mechs are not actual players with ping variations, nor are they moving targets (which also causes hit detection to be screwy).

    [quote author=epikt link=topic=2874.msg17046#msg17046 date=1376417387]
    All I'm saying is your demonstration here is invalid.
    Sorry I'm kind of a maths mind, but I'm just trying to understand.
    [/quote]

    Since you are a math guy: The claim / test results here aren't "invalid", they are just based upon empirical evidence and not quantifiable evidence.

    I will amend the OP to reflect that the numbers are arbitrary due to hit detection being totally random and unquantifiable. ;)

    [size=8pt]NOTICE: Due to the fact that hit-detection is totally random; any and all claims made by the op are based upon empirical evidence and not quantifiable evidence. Tests were done over several drops and, while the numbers differed, the overall results are the same. The OP accepts no responsibility if your results differ due to the fact that several factors affect the functionality of hit-detection; ping variation, grouped versus individual weapons fire, server load, a number, a letter, a symbol, a capital letter, the blood of a virgin, what day of the week it is and whether there has been a full moon in the last two weeks.
     
  10. The Verge

    The Verge Moderator Staff Member

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    can I use this in my videos? this is fantastic :)
     
  11. epikt

    epikt Benefactor

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    That's what I was afraid of.

    I don't want to be the pain in the ass, but if it is actually random, then on a large enough sample there will have no difference at all between chainfire and alpha.

    I'll take the "empirical evidence" since it's the best we have, but my curiosity is frustrated. :unsure:
     

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