How do you think the Clan Invasion will be implemented?

I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out how they plan on bringing in the Clans and everything that goes along with them for a while now. They seem directly at odds with a game that NEEDS balance to thrive, so as to avoid becoming yet another Mechwarrior arms race (in terms of online play).

The only realistic conclusion that I've been able to reach is as follows:

Clans are introduced via the news feed, etc. Maybe some trailers/launch videos involving them. Beyond that, availability of Clan tech (mechs, weapons, etc.) would be based on in-game allegiances and player progression.

For example, say that you are aligned with the Draconis Combine. Through use of existing lore (maybe?) particular clan mechs become available to players for purchase, "recommisioned" after being rebuilt and refit, etc. These would only be available after mastering all (or some predefined number of) the IS mechs in a particular weight class (shared with that clan mech), and then, you would only have access to those Clan mechs available to Draconis Combine. So if you wanted to drive, say, a Summoner, you'd need to be aligned with the appropriate successor state and have mastered x amount of IS heavies. Presumably weapons would be available to all allegiances, under similar progression prerequisites.

This sort of begs the question, though, if they aren't fighting against the Clans, then who are the Great Houses fighting? They weren't really fighting each other during this time period. I’m trying not to get wrapped around the axle on this point…

All that being said, I don't care all that much about the lore (at least not in the face of balance). I'd much rather see Clan mechs "nerfed" from their existing TT rules/lore than have them injected into the game and be wildly unbalanced. This is problematic, considering that's precisely how the story goes, and exactly why the Clans were such a threat to the IS. Their superiority is the very purpose their entire mythology.

Alternatively, I suppose they could introduce IS vs. Clans, then either a.) set matches with fewer clanners vs. more ISers (unlikely), or b.) nerf the fuck out of Clan mechs to bring them in-line with IS tech.

How can you balance Clan tech against standard IS tech when the only difference between the two is that one is better than the other?? I don't know, thinking about all this makes my head hurt. It also begs the question: wouldn't have been easier to just set the timeline to a period that DIDN'T involve the Clans in any significant way? I know everyone loves their MadDog/Firemouth/Direwolf/whatever, but wouldn't we be better off without those mechs if they came at the price of balance? If they release these mechs for mass consumption, it's going to be nothing but a nonstop 12 v 12 Timber Wolf shitshow, except now, everyone will pull the LRMs and replace them with SRM6s (you know it’s true!)

How do you guys think it can be done?

TL;DR: It seems to me there's very few (if any) good ways to introduce Clans without a.) REALLY shitting on the lore or b.) ruining the balance of the game and making it feel like every other bad iteration of MW online play. Anybody have any ideas?

 

This might work. I like the idea of having no affiliations as a prereq. But I feel like there has to be some drawbacks in the interest of balance. Like maybe no loyality points rewards for clans or something like that. Or the inability to unlock perks (basics, elites, mastery) for the mech? Or maybe non-customizable mechs? I don't know. I just can't conceive of how you can drop this things into the game as they are, regardless of difficulty of attainament, when they're SO much better than the existing tech (particularly the weapons systems).

[quote author=Vergere link=topic=3442.msg20833#msg20833 date=1378622095]

The other way to do it is to let the clanner's all show up like the other mechs that have been coming out. one at a time.
[/quote]


Fuck I hope not. If they just release these things into the wild, available to anyone, without significant nerfs to their existing stats they will ruin the game, period, not even debatable.

But I just had a terrible thought. A great disturbance in the Force:

What if they make them available to everyone, with no changes to their TT stats, only purchaseable with MC? .... That would be the end of MWO...

 

Haphazardly?



However, I hope it is implemented.......lets say.... compellingly?

 

They will probably release the clan version mech as another mech, acceptable to clan grade upgrades.

If they do House specific mechs (that are not just different paintjobs and cbill/xp/loyaly bonuses) then people would be switching to the houses with the better mech instead, at least I will. That would cause lots of trouble.

My guess is that the mech would be available to all, though some alliance may give them a discount in buying things (in cbills).

As for balances, if they do the queues differently it would not be a problem. They can do things like 9 clan mech vs 12 IS mechs, or things like that. 9 vs 9 clan mech are fine also.

 

Honestly I'd be happy if there was no clan invasion at all.
Clan mechs and tech are designed to be overpowered (what a stupid idea to begin with) and all I see is more balance issues.

 

I have an idea. Put a budget limit on all mechs and make clantech extremely expensive. The excuse would be that the mechs would be out of the Great House's price range for a single mech or something, lol.

Then you could have PvE with fully loaded clan mechs or whatever.

My $0.02.

 

I think when the Clan Invasion does come a lot of players will be butthurt.

You simply CAN NOT translate the clan mechs into MWO and have it done "fair for all". As stated above, they were designed to be overpowered war machines and the only way the IS managed to counter them was A) superior numbers and B) using some shady tactics. Since none of the real life players will be clan bred they won't use clan tactics which puts overwhelming firepower in the hands of people who will use the same tactics as everyone else.

Essentially they will either have to dumb down the clan tech to make it comparable to ours or they will have to limit the number of players playing clan tech in a drop; 10 Clanners (2 stars) versus 12 Spheroids (3 lances)or something like that. Even then I would place money on the Clan tech killing everything. Damn Clan ERPPCs do 15 damage for 15 heat at big ranges. You can out shoot and out damage an IS mech for the same heat? Weeeeeeeeeeeee ROFLMSTOMPing.

 

This would make sense and still make all mechs available to everyone. If the mech isnt in your clan then there would be a "Black Market" type fee added to the mech. But it's still available.

 

My thoughts/suggestions:

1. Matchmaking:

• IS vs IS 1:1 Split = 12 vs 12 = 3 Lances vs 3 Lances
• Clan vs Clan 1:1 Split = 12 vs 12 = 3 Lances vs 3 Lances
• IS vs Clan Option1 3:2 Split = 12 IS Mechs vs 8 Clan Mechs = 3 Lances vs 2 Lances (but affords an excellent balancing.system!)
• IS vs Clan Option2 1:1 Split = 12 vs 12 = 3 Lances vs 3 Lances, BUT with strict Weightclass.Limitations

2. Clan.Tech costs significantly more than IS.Tech (e.g. Dire Wolf/Daishi (100t) = 29,350,000 C-bills)
3. Re-introduction of Repair.Costs, having higher Costs for Clan Mechs
4. Clan Honor Rule/C-Bills/XP-System, meaning higher demands for Clanners, but also higher Output by any success, respectively getting more Output for killing Clanners
5. Balancing Clan-Weapons to the IS-Weapons by following aspects:

• Optimal Range
• Minimum Range
• Heat
• Damage
• Rate of Fire
• Cooldown
• Projectile Speeds

Alltogether making the Clan.Weapons be feelable stronger than IS.Weapons, but having some other limitations, so that IS versions are not in all points inferior.

Blagg

 

Recommend you listen to Bryan Ekmans trio of Podcasts with NGNG. No big surprises but some of their thinking on clans and repair costs, etc...

http://www.nogutsnogalaxy.net/forum/index.php/board,2.0.html

 

From what I've heard previously the Clan mechs will be pretty pricey, but on top of that you won't be able to mod them in any way.

One of the problems we have is that currently we have no weight balancing in-game, if we had that then I can battles taking place where it's a star of Clan against 2 lances of IS.

Really this brings me to what I consider the main thing lacking in MWO at the moment. Currently all we have is Assault & Conquest, and at best trying to 'synch drop' to play against others we want to, why can't we have a lobby where we arrange matches, also why not have 1 Lance vs.1 Lance battles (aka not just 12v12 but 4v4 & 8v8 ) WHY U NO HAVE SOLARIS ?

Now normally I'm not a "this should be easy to do, why have you not done it pgi?" types, but it really strikes me that these are low-hanging fruit, and with some sort of tonnage balancing mechanism would bring a lot 'Chamberlain style paper-waving' appeasement...

 

You can't balance with economy. Every merc group leader I've talked to has literally 100s of millions of cbills just sitting around in their treasury. I suspect that its the same way for the top house and top lone wolf players.

 

Nono, you misunderstand. I'm saying that you should put a cap on how much money can be spent on a single mech. Each INDIVIDUAL mech would have an arbitrary budget cap that you can't breach. For example, your mech cannot be worth more than 20mil C-Bills or something.

It'd add a whole new layer to balance, but I don't see another method of implementation besides outright removing balance or locking clan-tech into non-customizable mechs.

 

Ghost heat to balance out the weapons. I would also suspect that a lot of Clan weapons might be include situational requirements, kind of like the current version of the Gauss rifle. It hasnt been nerfed, but now its not an all purpose weapon and actually takes some skill to use correctly.

To buy mechs, some sort of "Black Market" for people not aligned with the great houses. So I can use the black market to buy a mech that isnt aligned with my chosen faction, paying a little extra say for a Marik faction mech when im aligned with Liao. At least thats my understanding from the latest NGNG podcast.

I think the roll-out is gonna be inspired by canon and maybe some TT rules, but it will mostly be a lot different than TT. Paul has stated in his podcast that they were worried about both being pay-2-win and the fact that they dont want any Clan tech to immediately invalidate all the previous mechs.

 

Actually Blagg has a very good point in that the balancing factor should be in the match making, though because I believe that they should maintain the weapon and mech disparities between the clans and IS as it is in TT. I think the match making should be 1 clan star(5 mechs) vs 1 company of IS mechs (12 mechs), no mixing and matching with clan and IS, they can try to balance the drops from there. The only problem I forsee is that though those numbers might seem a bit extreme, you have to remember the Clan pilots were also superior pilots thus with similar skill levels, weapons and mechs that would even out the numbers, but having any noob or joe piloting a clan mech in a drop would totally screw the balance and probably have a lot of whiners and complainers screaming. Wwhat I think they should do is test that match composition with known good pilots and how they fair to get a baseline then try it again with some at several different levels of skill to determine the curve and where it drops off. By having this information it would go a long way towards how they should introduce the Clans. Balancing can be a good thing, but on the otherhand if pushed too far everything ends up being the same and it just gets boring.

 

Eckman says in very plain language in the latest NGNG podcast:

"We WILL NOT make the same mistake that every other Mechwarrior game has made with clan tech."

He goes on to say that they'll be modifying the numbers (damage, heat, range, etc.) on clan tech to bring it in line in the interest of balance (not the same as IS tech, but balanced against it). Anyone with a brain in their head can understand that introducing it AS IS (TT rules) will completely negate the rest of the game up until that point and completely ruin the existing framework. Sorry, but that's a fact. It seems like a monumentally difficult task to bring in clan tech in the first place, but I understand that due to its popularity with fans, PGI feels compelled to include it.

Anyone who likes/loves/has passing interest in this game should be hoping with all their might that they nerf/balance all the incoming clan tech from its TT ruleset. If not, then get you can forget about everything that you've done up to this point in MWO because it will all be worthless. Think that the chainsaw builds are getting annoying? Don't worry, they'll be gone when everyone figures out the new clan tech meta game.

 

Well look at it this way, if you are going to nerf it to balance it with IS then what's the sense of bringing in the Clans at all. It is what it is, I understand your point but everyone is trying to make the best build, using the best weapons that they are good with. It's what Mech specs started out with and somewhat known for. To nerf it to the point of balancing it with IS level, negates what made the Clans special. It's natural for people to want the best builds, but for those warriors and units that crave and enjoy the challenge, to go against superior weapons and mechs and still have a chance to compete. Now that is where they need to look at balancing, not going crazy nerfing everything and hoping everyone will be satisfied, to me that's just chasing a pipe dream.

 

Sorry in advance for the wall of text. I didn;t intend for it go o n as long as it did

Not entirely. The most important difference between clans and the IS is the fact that the clans' pilots have been trained to drive mechs since birth. Selective breeding, genetic engineering, etc., for like two centuries, to create the very best possible candidates as mechwarriors. It's been stated by various authors over and over and over again that their intention was never to make the clan tech so vastly superior in every way to current IS tech. Better? Yes. But not 200% better. The real determining factor was always meant to be their skill level and fanatical zeal.

Also, is it "nerfing" if the tech isn't even here yet? Dropping those stats after they're introduced? Sure, that's nerfing. But they aren't even here yet. Which brings me to my next point, because we all know what you're thinking ("It already exists in TT!") Salient point: none of this is real. There is no "realism" factor that PGI has to adhere to. I'm not in favor of making wild departures from the existing rules, but minor-to-intermediate changes in the interest of balance? Totally onboard. I just don't want to see this game go down the shitter like EVERY SINGLE OTHER MW MULTIPLAYER EXPERIENCE EVER IN HISTORY HAS.

Will anyone (hardcore BT lore guys included) be pissed because the the ER MLas does 6 damage instead of 7 (or whatever)? Especially if these minor departures from a FICTITIOUS loreset keep the game from being one-sided and/or broken? If you are upset by this, please stop playing MWO. Go play MW4. It's horribly unbalanced. You'll love it.

It would be like playing WoW and getting mad that in a new expansion, they lowered the damage of Fireball from what it was in Warcraft 3. Read: it's ridiculous that people would argue against balancing weapons to keep the game from becoming boring. These aren't the same games. Accept it or go play something else.

It's terrible to play MWO when EVERYONE runs the same builds. To anyone with a brain, this is a clear indication that the game is unbalanced (gauss + ER PPC x2, in recent months, comes to mind). Chainsaw Muppets/Jagers, at the moment, are that flavor of the month build that everyone runs because it's currently a pretty great, easy-to-use, high-damage loadout. If clan tech drops, and it follows the original rules, it will be "OP" compared to what's in the game now. Therefore, everyone will run clan tech. Everyone. Why run anything else? Ever? The answer is that you wouldn't To take an approach of "That's what we do, we build mechs the best we can" is pretty obtuse. Are people really championing the idea of a game in which 50% of the existing architecture is significantly worse than the other 50%? Do people really want to play a game where everyone drives the exact same builds? None of which are IS builds? What's the point?! BORING, just Like every other mechwarrior game with a multiplayer component. Would giving the two sets of tech pros and cons be so bad? It seems like the opposite to me. I think it's the only thing that will keep this game alive.

I want authentic BT as much as anyone. However, I don't want a lopsided or unbalanced game. Is there any sane person who would prefer the tech to introduced EXACTLY as it was in TT, even at the expense of making the game fun/playable?

And a quick sidebar, I think it's hilarious how many people on MechSpecs cry about departures from BT lore/TT rules, then turn around and use macros to get around UAC5 jamming. It's the very definition of "hypocritical."

WALL OF TEXT CRITS YOU FOR OVER 9000!