CTF-3D The Unoriginally-Titled 'Mech (2x ERPPC, 2x ERLLas, 1x AC2, 1x JJ, XL280)

NOTE: You should read through this thread, not just the OP. The following build basically sucks, but evolves over the course of this thread.

[size=18pt]W/O AMS:


[size=18pt]W/ AMS:


Okay, let me just get this out of the way right now: I really probably don't know what I'm doing, I'm not too good at MWO, nor am I too good at building 'Mechs, and I'm fairly poor in-game and am therefore tailoring this around the default XL280 because God knows I'm not blowing 5 mil on a different XL.

Now then: I don't even know if this build works. I don't even own any ERPPCs or LLases yet. Therefore, I humbly request that those more fortunate to own such expensive equipment would give this design a whirl and see how it runs.

Now then, what would I use this for? Sniping. From what can tell, PPC sniping is the 3D's game, so two ER PPCs on the torsos fill that role. To deal with more pesky Lights or paint targets for Kill Assist credit, or just to deal even more damage at closer ranges, two ER LLases are mounted in the arms. Finally, in lieu of the more traditional Gauss in the Ballistic torso hardpoint, here I've employed a rapid-fire AC/2 for use at medium-long ranges.

My goals with this design were to create logical weapon groups for this 'Mech that all reside on either the torsos or the arms, to make aiming suck less in any situation -- shooting up or down on hills, disabling Arm-Lock, etc. Can't look far enough down to use the PPCs? Lasers. Having trouble hitting someone? The rapid-firing AC/2 will hit its mark at some point.

Basically, let me know what you think, let me know if this is viable or not, if it rocks or sucks, because I'm genuinely curious.

Thanks for reading (first post, woo!) and good day!

EDIT: Added AMS variant since I forgot it in the original.

 

Truthfully, this build runs way too hot. Most builds these days don`t mix ERLLas with ERPPCs since the heat quickly becomes unmanageable. To help mitigate heat, you should have one set of regular energy weapons (i.e. 2x ERPPC + 2x LLas, or 2x PPC + 2x ERLLas). It will still run pretty hot, though at least you will have some lower heat weapons that you can fire intermittently while waiting for your heat to drop down.

Oh yeah, you also say in your title description that it has 1x AC5, though in your build sheets, it has 1x AC2.

 

Good to know. I guess I could swap down to regular LLas. On that topic, is there any way to fit more heat sinks on this thing? I was worried it'd run really hot. :/
[quote author=Sassafras link=topic=4362.msg26443#msg26443 date=1382564114]
Oh yeah, you also say in your title description that it has 1x AC5, though in your build sheets, it has 1x AC2.
[/quote]
Well... crap. I did. Allow me to fix that real quick, if you would. Typo, there.

 

If you want to keep the AC2, then no, there's no real way to add in more heatsinks. If you drop the AC2 and ammo, you could then downgrade back to regular structure, trim a ton of armor (legs is your best bet), and throw in an XL300. This way you'd be able to pack in a respectable 20 DHS which will let you fire longer. (I can't save Smurfy loadouts using this computer, but I'll try to post the build when I get home).

 

Firstly, welcome to MechSpecs dude.

Sassafras is right - your build is way too hot. There's a bit much going on with that weapon combination. So, assuming you want to stick with the 280XL for financial reasons (perfectly understandable), and you're aiming for a sniper build with the ERPPCs, you could try something like this build, which keeps the AC2 but uses Med Lasers instead, or there are a few builds based on PPC/LLas combos (have a rummage around in the 3D board). With a 280XL, something like this might work:



You'd still need to watch your heat a bit, but it should be manageable, particularly if you're mostly just firing the PPCs at range.

Keep an eye on the "Cool. Eff." when you're building your mechs. Generally, something in the 30-40% range is considered reasonable, but depending how you play you may need to aim for something higher. You'll get a feel for that with experience.

 

The only major problem with this plan is that I by no means am able to afford an XL300 currently. It does seem like an interesting idea, but while Energy weapons are good to fall back on when Ballistics run out of ammo, Ballistics are good to rely on when Energy weapons run out of heat% to use up.

I came up with a weird idea, but hear me out: 1x PPC + 1x ERPPC, 1x LLas + 1x ER LLas. Keeps range (mostly), cuts down on heat, still more or less the same weapons.

Here's what I came up with:
Using XL300, Std. Structure


Using XL300, ES Structure

...which has a lot of tonnage left over, so...
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=9d7377a08a9ec331eb3014b48ba28eb5dd694720

Keeping XL280, Std. Structure


The XL330 variant, XL280 variant, and XL300 Std. all fit 18 DHSs.
XL330 offers the most speed of the 3, but sacrifices the most armour. It does let me keep ES Structure, though.
The XL300 is a balance between the 3 in terms of speed and armour, but requires me to purchase Std. Structure AND the new Engine.
The XL280 variant makes me buy Std. Structure also, but lets me keep plenty of Armour.

Then there's the XL300 + ES. Yes, it's slightly worse on heat, but by how much, really? And apparently the XL300 is some great engine that works for a lot of Mechs, so it may be worth buying anyway. And I get to keep ES, which I'd prefer to have on, since you have to pay to switch it every single time.

Or this whole "Regular + ER" business could be complete sh!t to begin with, and I've gotten nowhere.

Anyway, that's my findings.

[quote author=DarkLobster link=topic=4362.msg26448#msg26448 date=1382566654]
Firstly, welcome to MechSpecs dude.

Sassafras is right - your build is way too hot. There's a bit much going on with that weapon combination. So, assuming you want to stick with the 280XL for financial reasons (perfectly understandable), and you're aiming for a sniper build with the ERPPCs, you could try something like this build, which keeps the AC2 but uses Med Lasers instead, or there are a few builds based on PPC/LLas combos (have a rummage around in the 3D board). With a 280XL, something like this might work:

[smurfy build]

You'd still need to watch your heat a bit, but it should be manageable, particularly if you're mostly just firing the PPCs at range.

Keep an eye on the "Cool. Eff." when you're building your mechs. Generally, something in the 30-40% range is considered reasonable, but depending how you play you may need to aim for something higher. You'll get a feel for that with experience.

[/quote]

Here's the thing about this -- it looks good, but (and maybe this is just my personal being a little bitch) I feel I need an AMS handy; missile boats could rain death upon me otherwise, and I'm not good enough to do some bob-and-weave missile juke bullsh!t or whatever and dodge them as long as they're locked.

I really am torn between undoing the Endo-Steel I saved up for or keeping it and trying to work with it. Do I need it?

I dunno. Anyway, thanks for the welcome, Mr. ShadyCrustacean.

 

Heh, no problem.

Endo: Generally, it is worth keeping because it gives you a greater range of options when messing around with different builds. Personally, once I've bought it I'm very reluctant to drop it because of the cost. However, if you're set on an all energy loadout then it is often a good idea because slots become a bigger issue than tonnage (energy weapons are usually light but need a lot of heat sinks, which take up slots; Endo frees tonnage, but costs 14 slots).

Another option can be a Std engine - again it takes more tonnage, but saves 6 slots over an XL. It can become a balancing act though because obviously a bigger engine can fit more heat sinks in it.

Your point about AMS is perfectly valid, so it is well worth investing in if it helps you. The build I posted can include AMS if you just drop a heat sink and 2 points of armour - basically what you posted for your XL280 version.

Regarding your weapon selection: it could work, but you start to get into trouble with your weapon groupings because they all have different ranges/characteristics. You'd just need to figure out a way to group them that works for you. You could have them all on separate groups and just mix them as needed, but that could be tricky to juggle. Personally, I struggle to manage more than about three groups. You could maybe try something like: a PPC group for mid ranges (90-1000m or thereabouts), a LLas group for close-in (around 0-750m), and an "extreme range" group (ERPPC + ERLLas) for ranges 900m+. There's no reason it couldn't work, you'd just need to find a way to manage them, which is why most of these types of builds use weapons in pairs - it simplifies grouping.

Welcome to the merry world of Mech design!

Edit: Honestly, if you want to keep the stock engine and Endo, your OP build could work if you changed all the energy weapons to regular versions (i.e. 2 x PPC, 2 x LLas). It would still be a little on the hot side (26% eff.), but I think it would be manageable if you're careful. It may not be the best build ever, but it should work ok. I might give it a whirl at some point and let you know how I get on.

 

I figured. I don't want to blow up to 700k every time I rework my 'Mech either.

[quote author=DarkLobster link=topic=4362.msg26463#msg26463 date=1382576181]
Another option can be a Std engine - again it takes more tonnage, but saves 6 slots over an XL. It can become a balancing act though because obviously a bigger engine can fit more heat sinks in it.
[/quote]
My God, I didn't consider how that could work out. You know what, I have an STD280 laying around from my Cicada -- however, I use the STD245 out of a Jenner in it to make room for the PPC I put on said Cicada. that 280 is rotting in my Jenner becuase I suck with Lights! It's as if this was meant to be, I say! True divine intervention -- hark, for lo! it is deus ex machina!
Just smurfy'd this, and I forgot how abysmally heavy Std.s were. I don't think this'd work without compromising cooling significantly, which would be counterproductive.

[quote author=DarkLobster link=topic=4362.msg26463#msg26463 date=1382576181]
Regarding your weapon selection: it could work, but you start to get into trouble with your weapon groupings because they all have different ranges/characteristics. You'd just need to figure out a way to group them that works for you. You could have them all on separate groups and just mix them as needed, but that could be tricky to juggle. Personally, I struggle to manage more than about three groups. You could maybe try something like: a PPC group for mid ranges (90-1000m or thereabouts), a LLas group for close-in (around 0-750m), and an "extreme range" group (ERPPC + ERLLas) for ranges 900m+. There's no reason it couldn't work, you'd just need to find a way to manage them, which is why most of these types of builds use weapons in pairs - it simplifies grouping.
[/quote]
I figure, group the PPCs and LLases. I'm thinking it'll be like trading heat capacity for a more drastically-scaling damage-range falloff. Think: at all but the most extreme ranges, both will hit and deal identical damage. When outside of the range of the regular, but within the range of the ER, the ER still hits. Since DMG-range falloff is gradual, in theory the resultant damage would simply be a composite of the two damage curves for each weapon group, which would look something like this:

Code:

D| MAX__________________
a|                       \REG Falloff
m|                        \
a|                         |REG+ER Falloff
g|                         |
e|                          \REG = 0, ER Falloff
|                           \REG + ER = 0
|__________________________________________
                                       Range

Only exception would be point-blank PPCs, but one would still deal damage.

[quote author=DarkLobster link=topic=4362.msg26463#msg26463 date=1382576181]
Welcome to the merry world of Mech design!
[/quote]
TYGS

[quote author=DarkLobster link=topic=4362.msg26463#msg26463 date=1382576181]
Edit: Honestly, if you want to keep the stock engine and Endo, your OP build could work if you changed all the energy weapons to regular versions (i.e. 2 x PPC, 2 x LLas). It would still be a little on the hot side (26% eff.), but I think it would be manageable if you're careful. It may not be the best build ever, but it should work ok. I might give it a whirl at some point and let you know how I get on.
[/quote]
Hello, edit while I'm typing. XD
That would be feasible, and I acknowledge this, but I'm putting MAXIMUM range over a lot here. I've PPC-sniped with a default PPC on my Cicada, and it's fairly frustrating to nail someone from far away and get nothing out of it. Same deal with LLases on the Trial Dragon (moreso there actually, the regular LLas has pretty meh range when you want to snipe.)

Edit: Firstly, can I just say that this community seems very friendly and readily-collaborative? I like this place.
Also, jesus hell my posts are lengthy.

 

...it doesn't. WAY too hot, too much armor, bad wep synergy. But good try, I can see you're making an effort. I recommend putting a lot more practice in game and less theorycrafting - I mean this in the most respectful ways. Good luck with refining the build, work it towards something that increasingly fits or exploits your playstyles for higher success in actual game.

A few quick tips: get more DHS, build around different engine sizes in smurfy to see what you can min/max and what the tradeoffs are, you don't need max armor in legs, sometimes not in arm(s), wep loadout that synergizes with mech playstyle / your approach, etc.

PS - the guy saying that a larger engine always leads to more heat sinks isn't necessarily correct - a combination of free tonnage and free critical slots leads to the most heat sinks (see my 22 DHS build for example using STD over XL due to XL using last few crit slots).

 

Welcome, Kappatalist.

In keeping the XL280 and trying to stick to a sniper role with max range, you have come into my favorite sniping combo in the game! (I commonly use this load-out on a Victor 9B)



The projectile speed of the AC/5 is the closest current ballistic to the speed of a PPC. Sniping over long distance, this is a big advantage. Nothing like firing off two weapon types only to have one completely miss. Fire AC/2 w/ PPC and one misses. To fire PPC/LL, you have to lead with PPCs, come back to your target for the LL and bounce back and forth - not a bad thing, but there is a learning curve. The combo of very similarly accelerated projectiles is very advantageous in sniping. Moreover, the combo of ERPPCs and AC/5s both give you effective sniping up to about 1300m, maxed around 1600m. Again, similar stats. However, my favorite part of this combo is the speed of DPS. You max out at about 12 DPS. However, with this sniper, once you run hot (a problem most ANY sniper has) you simply move to only firing your AC/5s. That's still 6.66 DPS and gives you 180% cooling efficiency with only basic skills unlocked. After you get your elite skills unlocked, you are at 200% cooling. That means you cool twice as fast as your AC/5s generate heat. This makes this the most heat effective long range sniping combo in game. At least, I like to think so because it's my favorite.

Anyway, makes for a cool-running sniper build that can sustain high damage even after the PPCs get too hot. Hope ya dig.

Chatt.

 

Yeah, apparently the build in the OP is a shitsicle. Thankfully, I come to an interesting revelation later in the thread, and I'm also considering a more dakka-reliant build featuring dual AC/2s. Basically, this thread has turned into a place where I can figure out what 3D ideas work and what don't.

For those curious, my AC/2 idea:


Alt.:


And my latest iteration of the "revelationary" build:


[quote author=Cpt Chattahah link=topic=4362.msg26469#msg26469 date=1382580960]
Welcome, Kappatalist.

In keeping the XL280 and trying to stick to a sniper role with max range, you have come into my favorite sniping combo in the game! (I commonly use this load-out on a Victor 9B)

[smurfy build]

The projectile speed of the AC/5 is the closest current ballistic to the speed of a PPC. Sniping over long distance, this is a big advantage. Nothing like firing off two weapon types only to have one completely miss. Fire AC/2 w/ PPC and one misses. To fire PPC/LL, you have to lead with PPCs, come back to your target for the LL and bounce back and forth - not a bad thing, but there is a learning curve. The combo of very similarly accelerated projectiles is very advantageous in sniping. Moreover, the combo of ERPPCs and AC/5s both give you effective sniping up to about 1300m, maxed around 1600m. Again, similar stats. However, my favorite part of this combo is the speed of DPS. You max out at about 12 DPS. However, with this sniper, once you run hot (a problem most ANY sniper has) you simply move to only firing your AC/5s. That's still 6.66 DPS and gives you 180% cooling efficiency with only basic skills unlocked. After you get your master skills unlocked, you are at 200% cooling. That means you cool twice as fast as your AC/5s generate heat. This makes this the most heat effective long range sniping combo in game. At least, I like to think so because it's my favorite.

Anyway, makes for a cool-running sniper build that can sustain high damage even after the PPCs get too hot. Hope ya dig.

Chatt.
[/quote]
MFW I was actually considering a build extremely similar to this! In fact, I opened it up in smurfy, modified it to add the obligatory AMS, and realized that I had smurfy'd the exact same thing before:
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=40&l=b44c2f68cef05dfbb6538748af581dd5c8456461
The difference from the above "dakkaish" builds is that you would have the PPCs and ACs fire together, something I hadn't considered. Up until now, my intent has been to use ACs as a sort of mid-range backup, hance 2 AC/2s that can be chainfired to create what I'd assume to be a dakka chaingun.

Additionally, I should mention that unfortunately I haven't been playing nearly long enough to unlock Elite Pilot Lab upgrades. Someday, though!

 

The good thing about AC/5s is that you can continue firing all day without building any heat. If you run AC/2 or Lasers, once you reach about 90% heat, you cannot fire anymore. Then, if you're still engaged with the enemy, you're only able to fire one weapon every few seconds or you'll overheat. The dual AC/5s keep fairly high DPS going and you're still cooling off.

 

Yeah, AC/2s are funky like that. Same heat as AC/5 + Fast RoF = toastier than a Quiznos sub after not too long. I'm thinking, though, If the only other weapon on there is PPCs, it shouldn't be too big a problem. Yeah, with lasers, there's no stopping them. If you mess up, and you're going to overheat, you'll know long before you shut down. It sucks. :/

ACs are more controlled, though, so it's easier to push the threshold with them. My current 3D (truly a FrankenMech, considering that it's the default loadout mixed with whatever I had laying around) is an AC/2 and AC/5 on one group, and 4 MLas on another. I hate MLases, and these 4 generate absurd heat and aren't nearly as effective as the 2+5 spam, which seems to downright slay. The lasers are the only things that ever seem to cause overheats. Even if I get to 96%-so heat while using the ACs, it's easy to control them and keep it cool, just find some cover. Usually, with the way I play, I can get to cover and buy plenty of time even if my foe gives chase. By the time they get there, they're walking into dakka death. Headshots ftw.

Point taken, though, and I can confirm -- ain't no one gon overheat from AC/5s. Their DPS just seems disappointing, though.

 

Now that's quite an interesting and involved discussion. But, man, these builds are all so hot. It's hard to fit ER PPCs or AC2s into a build without doing terrible things to your heat efficiency, that's for sure.

Also, I am shocked, SHOCKED to see Cpt. Chattahah chime in with a dual AC5 build. An addict's gotta do what an addict's gotta do.

 

Yep, we're all here because we like to design and discuss mechs! It's interesting to see how your ideas are evolving in the face of all the random advice we're throwing at you.

[quote author=Soy link=topic=4362.msg26468#msg26468 date=1382580358]PS - the guy saying that a larger engine always leads to more heat sinks isn't necessarily correct - a combination of free tonnage and free critical slots leads to the most heat sinks (see my 22 DHS build for example using STD over XL due to XL using last few crit slots).
[/quote]

Yeah, that was what I meant. Sorry if I was unclear - don't want to confuse the new folk! Standard engines won't always help you, but they are something to keep in mind.

Captain Chattahah raises a good point with the AC5s - it's often a good idea to have something that you can keep firing when you're running hot. Ballistics are generally good for this purpose (not so much AC2s though as you've observed).

It's also worth noting that AC2s are the longest range weapon in the game, and AC5s aren't too far behind.

Edit: Looking at your most recent builds, the one I'm most interested in (and can't say I've seen before) is the 3 x ERLLas/2 x AC2 build. It looks like it could have potential as a long-range support mech! I'd probably give it a tweak, but I'd be interested to try it out:



Your 280XL version with 15 DHS would probably work quite well with regular Large Lasers. Use the AC2s for long-range tagging, and tickle them with the lasers when they're a bit closer.

 

Drop the ballistics, you need the critslots for plenty of Heatsinks for continuous fire. If you want to snipe with ballistics i would recommend Double-Gauss supported by some Mlas, but sniping with Gauss affords more skill due to Charging.time. Try this:

 

It just sucks that the Builts be distorted to meet the preferences of energy boat lover people. There are separate contributions of pure energy builts. Use those for exactly this purpose! Why you can't discuss those builts which are proposed. Thank you.

Another point in my opinion is to name it,... without using the 2 balistic slots or at least one the CTF-3D offers is a waste of the Layout. Full Energy loadouts could be handeled by other Battlemechs better, since they have better placed Spots for the weapons or because more HS could be placed in bigger engines.

 

I totally disagree with you. In my opinion there are two ways to build the 3D, namely either as Jumpsniper (Full Energy or Gaussrifle - which is nerfed recently with chargeup.time) or as Brawler with any AC/Energy-Mix. Only because you have the hardpoints doesnt mean you necessarily have to use them (all)

I also disagree with you on the second statement. Tell us which other mechs for Energysniper are better, then we can discuss, if you are right

 

Look, I'm not an energy boat lover (my favourite builds rely heavily on AC5s and LBX10s), but he specifically asked how to make room for more heatsinks, and there is no possible way without dropping at least one weapon. For his intended role, losing the single AC2 makes the most sense to me, since for sniping, you want to be able to do a large amount of pinpoint damage.

 

You could turn your awnser in the other direction. Just skip one of the LLs for example and have 5 tons for HS freeed up. The built as it stands is prone to be brawled because you don't have a shaker. But if you keep the AC you could shake everybodys cockpit who wanna come close to you. It isn't for the hard punch,... therefore you have the PPCs, but to disturb the enemy while engaging on you. Since you will be anyhow on heat heavy built, you need something to be constantly spamed to suppress the attacker, while you w8 for the next salvo you can fire with your main weapons.