Game balance after Clan Invasion [Poll+Feedback]

Too Early yo vote, yes. I will do so in a week's time or so.

 

My initial knee-jerk handful of post patch games is - Meh. They are different, but they don't feel OP at the moment. But then that's with a handful of IS Mechs supporting a larger number of Clan Mechs on either side. Once the initial shock of ZOMGCLAN! Wears out, I think we'll have a chance to truly weigh in.

 

Here's an interesting thought that I just had...

For the time being let's hypothetically say clan tech and IS tech is balanced (woohoo PGI you've come a long way baby, etc, etc). It has been said in the past that the mechlab limitations Clanners have to put up with are part of that balance. And I think that all the MLG Pro gamers here at MechSpecs would agree that any sort of limitation is a drawback for them. But looking at this from a community-wide perspective is it actually a benefit in disguise? That basically there is less room for utter failure in the mechlab?

I mean, we've all seen some really fucked up builds on the battlefield but comparatively those same people would have less options to screw up in a clan mech as opposed to an IS mech. Or will it not matter because these people will find a way to be terrible anyway?

 

MagBast - power is nothing without control

you want an interesting thought, here's one -

what if PGI had taken the clan stuff and done the rollout legit as fuck...

like, limited it to clan vs clan [and IS vs IS] for i dunno, say a year [whatever]. that allows them to get the data mined and QA worked out for balance on the actual invasion where clan is fighting IS.

this serves to pacify those who prefer a pre-clan MW world/game as well of IS stuff only. it also buys PGI time to get CW in place for the actual clan invasion. people can still play clan mechs, just against other clan mechs. this stuff gives the community a natural period of time to stratify into different factions, allegiances, cultures, etc.

how this would work from an engineering/programming side of things is simple - seperate queues.

it would help build up a sense of actual immersion for what's about to take place (clan invasion ofc), this being one of the main reasons behind this concept.

think about it. it makes a lot of fucking sense.

fits the lore (clans fighting in kerensky space), it pacifies both groups [at least temporarily], it gives PGI time to work balance out til the cows come home, and also helps build up a sense of excitement, tension, and most importantly immersion in the upcoming CW universe. note i don't even talk about CW itself, just how the clan invasion rolls into everything, but if the two were combined right... wow that'd be epic

...this is what they should've announced six months ago, in my opinion. if they had tried the flip with IS being established in CW first then run the invasion, that'd be cool too. instead seems both are being 'switched on' at same time w/ CW rollout, seems like a squandered opportunity.

 

OK, finally I achieve several games this morning with my dragon slayer, and I think it is currently over for some IS mechs. On one-on-one, I was systematically destroy by clan mechs, even lighter one. Combination of longer range and less heat give them continuous damage capacity that can be countered.

The most sad is that I have the feeling I can not really influence the tide of the battle, which is really very frustrating. Some IS mech like DDC will continue to shine I think, but most of the time, clan mech will be better and I don't see a reason for someone to go back to IS mech once he can pilot a clan one.

Last think I just hate : you have to click every time you want to shot. I think it is a big UAC-5 nerf as you will be less precise while using it. I don(t understand why they have done this modification.

Only good news, SRM are really more powerful than yesterday.

 

That does make a lot of sense.

But to clarify my earlier point; I'm not talking about firepower, specifically. I'm more talking about absolutely terrible choices in the mechlab that are possible for IS 'mechs but not for Clan 'mechs. Most of the ones that come to mind are engine-related. So perhaps I should have specifically stated that. I've seen Atlases with the firepower of medium 'mechs because they mounted an absurdly large engine. And I've seen potato-slow Jenners. But these mistakes aren't possible to make with clan 'mechs.

A while back there was an interesting thread that compared engines and even had a nice graph that very plainly showed where different weight classes start seeing diminishing returns. Now, at the time this information was no surprise to anyone here. Nice to have it spelled out in black and white sure... but basically the guidelines the intelligent builders here were already following. But there always seems to be at least one guy in every match who's engine is either way too big or way too small for his 'mech. And regardless of what weapons you have mounted (and your ability to fire them) that kind of handicap is crippling.

So strictly comparing the worst members of each faction, it looks like the limitations imposed on clanners is a boon. Provided community warfare takes some kind of average match performance into consideration. Of course this might not be the case at all...

 

Fortunately bad builds are still possible!

 

I still don't fully get the mechanics of the Clan Weapons especially the Autocannons. As we could watch ingame or in youtube vidz the Clan Versions fire in a Burst of several Bullets. So does this mean if I want full 20 Damage with the C-UAC20 i need to hit with every Bullet of the Burst, right? That also means that not each Bullet deals the full 20 Damage as we used to know from the IS Versions. That also means you need a X Amount of more Ammo to deal the same maximum Damagescore as with the IS Version. Right?

That means from the Damagescore-Perspective 210 IS-UAC5 Ammo equals 630 C-UAC5 Ammo?

Damn, I prefer IS Autocannons! Less difficult to use, more Pinpoint and you can put the Ammo in Head/CT/Legs

 

XL engines are now about useless unless you are a 150ish km/h mech or a mech that stores all the firepower in one side.Clans don't die loosing ST, IS do.

Medium mechs are useless again(ofc you can still do good on something like 9mlas 4P, but you would just do better on a similar loaded clanner anyway http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=179&l=e34d886b3fb667130c654b5d3f523dfb4b257b67 can you find the differences ? ), a medium clanner can pack much more firepower at same speed and armor with better range. Only viable ones are SRM boats with STD engine.

Heavies and Assault don't suck as bad, as long as you load them for high alpha and use STD engine, but still clanners are much better.

The new radar deprivation module is totally nonsense, but that's for IS too.

What is IS better at ? fast lights, LRMs boats (until clan LRMs are fixed) and autocannos(packing less overall firepower on same weight mech tho), that's about it, clanners wreck in every other aspect.

 

Clan tech was never meant to be balanced in Battletech. Instead, there are 'roleplaying' elements.

However, MWO is an arena game, not a roleplaying game. The most complicated thing in an arena game is to ensure the game play is balanced while keeping the content fresh (new Mechs, Maps, Weapons, Game Modes).

So what could PGI do?

1 Stay true to creating a fully balanced [sic] arena game to the point where IS tech and C tech is equal

2 Make the game completely unbalanced by bringing Clan Mechs into the game with all their advantages but (due to the nature of MWO's genre) without the disadvantages

PGI is trying to do both.

Picking up some earlier suggestions from this thread, maybe a temporary solution could be to let players decide whether they want to play matches with mixed tech, or IS/Clan only (by adding another check box before starting a game - as if there isn't enough click stuff already...). I could also imagine stuff like 12 IS vs 8 Clanners matchmaking but that would bring balancing to a whole new level. Also I assume tournaments in future will have rules about what Mechs are allowed instead of just giving a tonnage limit or 3/3/3/3 maybe.

Just my two cents...


P.S. Killing Clan Mechs in my (now underpowered ) SHD was a lot of fun this morning

 

Yep.
For example the C-UAC/20 fires 5 bullets dealing 4dmg each, for a total of 20. And if you want you can fire a second salvo of 5*4 during the reload, because it's "ultra".
In the mechlab the ammo count is the number of sub-munitions, not the number of salvos.

 

That is also my assessment but it's temporary until they get the several ammo types mechanic in the game.

 

I would agree with you Seven, except on one thing: clan building is absolutely not flexible
You can change hardpoints, yep, but that's all and it makes builds of a same mech pretty homogeneous.

I also think the range advantage of clan weapons is way to high.

 

Strange you're not complaining about the point damage on your IS mechs Epikt....

One side gets one set of advantages and weakness, the other gets a different set. Having both similar is plain boring and wouldn't sell.

Not entirely convinced on the hardpoint idea but then the current system of hard points was never in TT so to an extent I have to shrug and take it. I've been using the quirks to tweak setups as people really don't need all of the hard points they're stuffing on the mechs. One battle alone this morning I killed 4 shut down mechs that stuffed themselves full of weapons and I'm sure my experience isn't alone. Its why trying to draw out balance conclusions atm is pointless.

So far I've had no particular problems finding a range of weapon setups for each chassis but then I've played 3 different Chassis so far (Nova, Summoner, Direwolf). If you don't use most of the weapon systems out there I can see a problem though. Similar to if you only use the 5 "tournament" IS chassis with specific builds they're all pretty homogenous.

Only thing I hate so far is the loss of the lower arm actuator on clan (but not IS) mechs if you install a ballistics there.

 

I was going to wait until I had data ready but in order to calm people a little and bring facts to the discussion I will lay out my suggestion.

Take ten screenshots of endgame scores.
Transscribe the damage and kills into excel, categorize by IS L/M/H/A and Clan L/M/H/A.
Calculate averages and compare IS light vs Clan light, etc.

That should show us a simplified view of the current balance of damage and kills. No insult intended but so far we have only argued our own opinions and not with facts, even though this will be flawed it still shows a simple trend which doesn't cost us any effort to collect except pressing a key and then transcribing data.

 

Balance? Meh. PGI doesn't have that word in their vocabulary.

However, the clan invasion DID create an awesome turn in playstyle and create a whole new feel to the game which I am thoroughly enjoying. Hell, I loved the drops I had last night.

As people have already stated, each side has their own strengths and weaknesses. Most clan mechs can equip more DHS and all their systems are lighter. However, they generate higher heat and have MUCH longer durations. As Blagg pointed out, it's much easier to put a single Autocannon slug into a component than fire bursts of low damage slugs and spread damage. The energy weapons are even more difficult. Twisting out of C-ERML is a joke. They are powerful, yes, however, when the damage can be spread over my entire mech and I can turn around with a true pinpoint IS weapon, I feel just fine in my IS mechs.

I still have no doubt that IS can no only compete, but, overpower clan tech once people get used to the new playstyle of the game mechanics. Do the Chubby Checker (do the twist) and carry IS weapons with shorter burn times and instant pinpoint to strip single components while the Clans do their best to tear every kg of armor off your mech with their spread damage.

I actually feel that the balance was done quite well between Clans and IS. The only real issue I have is the boating capability of Clans. 12 C-ERML on a jumping 100kph mech? JESUS! 5x SSRM6s?? Com'n! 6 ballistic slots on a 100t mech?? Yes, I did play a 6x UAC Daishi. It was HILARIOUS! However, that is one thing that does throw the balance off. But, as I said, I think the boating potential is really the only hard issue.

Overall, (other than the RIDICULOUS server issues they had) I feel that game mechanics and balance were handled very well.

 

After playing a lot of matches post patch I like the new clan mechs. They move so slow my 2x ERLLas SDR-5D has been getting a of of clan kills and a few head shots. Kit Foxes are tasty prey that are easily outmaneuvered at the moment.

As a Spider almost anything on the field can carve my reactor out with a spoon if they catch me wrong. To me having some crazy firepower will make even the 80 tonners feel what that is like. Many matches post invasion I have seen a single Dire Wolf core 2 or 3 assault mechs in one short brawl. Next week may be different once people are used to clanners but heavy and assault IS mechs better learn to bug out like us lights do.

Heh. This reminds me of the scene in Matrix where Cypher tells Neo to "run like we do" when they see an agent. Very fitting.

To the next Cataphract that sees Dire Wolf and Timber Wolf bearing down on them do what we lights do: run your ass off.

 

like clan mechs aren't kings of pinpoint too

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=163&l=796f8f4e2014b8961be3b8fee107640b0178e1db

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=171&l=775e2be306bff0e4126d9dc5719c1bb8af988746

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=191&l=44c7ec779efa2ee6d1939cdce7c32435d7cec905

http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=165&l=898ed0f1140c24d0348aa4e81345cd8ac9c01d4b

etc etc ...