Can we have the Marauder pls? (e.g. included in a new IS Package)

Blagg Zear · Sep 29, 2014

Unseen lawsuit: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen

If PGI has any lawsuit problems with bringing alive the Marauder, why not just make a MWO Version with a different name and a redesign, which only resembles the original design in the spirit?

e.g. this here:

[img width=700 height=888]http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/089/d/a/battletech___grey_death_marauder_by_shimmering_sword-d4ugbiu.jpg[/img]
[img width=700 height=466]http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2012/171/8/2/highlander_marauder_by_shimmering_sword-d548k5f.jpg[/img]

it's not 1:1 with the original design:
[img width=617 height=478]http://anymoon.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/Officer%20Pod%20Box.jpg[/img]

So should not be a lawsuit problem, right? Ok, the Name is another thing PGI has to solve, right?

Maybe call it the Mad Crab and use the design of the King Crab to create something similar:
[img width=700 height=598]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd195/cronic0_0/King_Crab.jpg[/img]

Or call it the Scavenger, whatever...
[img width=700 height=441]http://bg.battletech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/BattleMech-Tech-Page-illustration.jpg[/img]
[img width=700 height=525]http://i.imgur.com/JR9goGn.jpg[/img]
[img width=700 height=840]http://i.imgur.com/0jcJfXE.jpg[/img]
[img width=700 height=623]http://i.imgur.com/OyQllTG.jpg[/img]
[img width=700 height=908]http://i1280.photobucket.com/albums/a485/bishopsteiner/2244e078-0006-4e2c-85f4-1d02ffe9a989_zps1068e1eb.jpg[/img]
[img width=700 height=636]http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/24/48/79504824/photos/undefined/XXX%20MAX2.png[/img]

C'mon, we really want that Mech!

Interesting Marauder Redesign Contest: http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/142485-marauder-contest-all-entry-voting-closed/
http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/140210-marauder-concept-design-contest-unofficial-ended/

Michael · Sep 29, 2014

I am a HUGE proponent of this. I honestly think PGI saying "We aren't going to do any of the Unseen" was Russ and Bryan wussing out. Perhaps they were worried that a bad redesign would be the proverbial Straw but in my opinion, assuming it looked even half as cool as the original, this is something that would bring me back in force.

I think FD did a black and white marker sketch one day a few years ago. That shit was sick!!!! But noooooooooooooooooo "It may still be too close. We don't want to get in any shit".

Regina Redshift · Sep 30, 2014

Harmony Gold defends their Macross license extremely aggressively. If MW:O releases a Marauder, they will get sued. That's the sad reality of IP litigation. Then again we did get the Locust, so maybe there's an arrangement worked out.

Chewtoy · Sep 30, 2014

Archwright said: ↑

Harmony Gold defends their Macross license extremely aggressively.
Click to expand...

Indeed. They already tried to kill the trailer for MW5/MWO because of the Warhammer in it, so they're actively defending it even now.

Using the name and keeping the spirit could be possible, but I would expect Harmony Gold to at least try and step on PGI regardless over it. If they do, and PGI lose.......

[quote author=Archwright link=topic=8107.msg54870#msg54870 date=1412053148]
Then again we did get the Locust, so maybe there's an arrangement worked out.
[/quote]

Locust was from a different IP. AFAIK, only the IIC variants for the Macross IP made it in amongst the Reseen (and then only after being redesigned to avoid the problematic lawsuits).

The rest are all Dougram or Crusher Joe mechs.

epikt · Sep 30, 2014

Chewtoy said: ↑

Locust was from a different IP. AFAIK, only the IIC variants for the Macross IP made it in amongst the Reseen (and then only after being redesigned to avoid the problematic lawsuits).
The rest are all Dougram or Crusher Joe mechs.
Click to expand...

Indeed, the Locust is a Crusher Joe design. And none of the unseen released in MWO was from Macross.
If I remember correctly what Russ said during the town hall, they could release some Macross mechs but in this case would have to be based not on the "original" designs but on the redesigns (IIC). And they are quite reluctant about that (I agree, I don't want a 85t Marauder).

Remarius · Sep 30, 2014

Well doesn't quite have the allure of the IS 75t version but....

Aylek · Sep 30, 2014

Most iconic mech out there... MW:O can never be complete without trying to implement one. I'd love to have the original design, but ultimately would befine with the reseen one or something similar.

Dr. Danger · Sep 30, 2014

I don't think the problem is the name Marauder, but the design that was taken from Macross.

Michael · Sep 30, 2014

Dr. Danger said: ↑

I don't think the problem is the name Marauder, but the design that was taken from Macross.
Click to expand...

This is exactly the case gentlemen. The name Marauder is fine. It is the image that they are protecting.

HG can go fuck themselves till they are blue in the face.

The funny thing is, until recently, HG was essentially squatting on their IPs, not really doing anything with them. I think Russ and Bryan need to grow a pair and have these machines redesigned. They did it with the other mechs and, while they aren't all perfect, they are decent enough jobs to get it done.

Blagg Zear · Sep 30, 2014

Found this interesting Article about this issue:

Posted by Bert Bargo on Jun 29, 2013
Now You See Me, and Now You Donâ€™t: A Brief History of the Unseen
Categories: Featured Articles, Informative | 0 comments
Hello again, Readers! Bert Bargo, here.

PGI has recently been working on enticing players from around the world to invest in the various package deals being offered as a part of the up and coming â€œProject Phoenix.â€ There has been a lot of confusion about what exactly happened between FASA Corporation/Battletech, Harmony Gold, and the legal battles that have gone down over in the past. As a result, I feel obligated to do some journalistic sleuthing and dig up information to help shine some light onto the situation.

I am willing to stand corrected if someone can make and prove claims as to what really happened behind the scenes, but here is what Iâ€™ve found out. I will cite my sources as a good journalist should and so letâ€™s go start at the beginning!

I want to establish and make clear that this drama doesnâ€™t concern PGI or IGP. Bryan Ekman and Russ Bullock own Piranaha Games. They are partnered with Jordan Weismanâ€™s company Smith&Tinker. Weisman himself is one of the co-creators of Battletech.

[img width=300 height=265]http://www.qqmercs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/battledroids-300x265.jpg[/img]

In 1984, two gentlemen, Jordan Weisman and L. Ross Babcock, established a tabletop game called Battledroids: the very first edition of what was to shortly become BattleTech. George Lucas had, in fact, had trademarked the term â€œdroidâ€ and so Weisman and Babcock (henceforth known as FASA Corporation) were forced to change their gameâ€™s name from â€œ-droidâ€ to â€œ-techâ€ and the individual units to â€œBattleMechs.â€ FASA had little money to begin with but Mort Weisman, Jordanâ€™s father, sold his publishing business, added a bunch of cash to the endeavor and became the Operational Manager. As the months and years wore on, the tabletop game became more successful and so they began to diversify into video games and novels. FASA continued updating their series as its popularity grew and grew.

Itâ€™s an undeniable fact that FASA, in their early editions of Battletech spanning from 1984 to around 1996, contained copied designs for their battlemechs from a variety of mecha Animes. In the first edition of Battletech (AKA BattleDroids), the Stinger, Shadow Hawk, Archer, Griffin, Warhammer, Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, Crusader, Wasp, Rifleman and Merlin were all designs lifted wholesale from Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Fang of the Sun Dougram and Crusher Joe. There wasnâ€™t a single original design from the first edition: they were all borrowed.

The full list of copied mech designs from over the years is here: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Unseen
That is one long list.

[img width=300 height=219]http://www.qqmercs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/rifleman-comparison-300x219.jpg[/img]

Why did FASA do this? Apparently, according to the legal documents, FASA thought that it did successfully acquire the rights to the various designs they took, be it from Super Dimension Fortress Macross, Fang of the Sun Dougram or Crusher Joe. Iâ€™d just like to reiterate that FASA wasnâ€™t purposefully stealing. Macross had supposedly belonged to â€œTwentieth Century Importsâ€ whom FASA had purchased a license from. â€œTCIâ€ allegedly obtained the rights from Japanese company Tatsunoko but, in reality, it had actually been Harmony Gold who had obtained the rights from Japan in January of 1984.

Itâ€™s almost admirable, all copyright issues aside, how FASA Corporation lifted the designs completely intactâ€“ They didnâ€™t change anything about them. I made these comparison images quite large to highlight the extent of their similarities. Unfortunately, using these machinesâ€™ exact likenesses would inevitably come around to bite them in the upcoming years.

Blogger Chris Meadows indicates: â€œâ€¦ FASA kept on using the designs, and Harmony Gold never filed any legal action against them. Probably at least part of this was because of a period of hibernation Harmony Gold went into during the late â€™80s through early â€™90s, in which they basically just rubber-stamped any Robotech-related tie-in that came across their desks.â€

[img width=300 height=177]http://www.qqmercs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/tomahawk-comparison-300x177.jpg[/img]

Nothing really exploded until the mid-1990s. These â€œborrowedâ€ mechs suddenly disappeared entirely from the Battletech series â€” they had stopped being produced as physical models and as entries in the Tactical Readouts. FASA and other Battletech related groups were very tight lipped about why.

The first explanation comes from Author Randall N. Bills. According to Wikipedia: â€œNo official broke the silence until 2007, after FASA had sold the BattleTech intellectual property to WizKids Games. Under license from them, the Classic BattleTech line developer for Fantasy Productions, Randall N. Bills explained that FASA had sued Playmates over the use of images owned by FASA, but received no compensation, even though Playmates was ordered to stop using the images in question.â€

So according to Mr. Bills, it was FASA who had started this whole copyright mess?

Circa 1994, Playmates, a then-partner of Harmony Gold, had released a line of â€œExO Squad Robotechâ€ toys that were a kind of hybrid Macross and an American mecha seriesâ€™ designs. Iâ€™m confused as to why Playmates tried to combine these two series, or at least their names: The only similarities they shared were that aliens invade and that trained pilots take robot suits into battle. In either show there was never any evidence of a crossover outside of the toy line.

[img width=300 height=228]http://www.qqmercs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/madcat-wat-300x228.jpg[/img]

Blogger Mr. Meadows once again states: â€œAs FASA asserted in its filing [in 1994 --Auth.], the Exosquad storyline shares a remarkable number of similarities with BattleTech. FASA also pointed out that one of the Exosquad â€œe-frameâ€ mecha strongly resembled aBattleTech Madcat, and the others resembled other BattleTech mechs.

There is absolutely no way that you can tell me this toy pictured here doesnâ€™t really resemble a MadCat..

Ultimately, the Judge in the case determined that there werenâ€™t enough facts to establish liability with Playmates and thus it was dropped.

However, after FASAâ€™s attack against Playmates, Harmony Gold jumped onto the counter-offensive and went after FASA for their Macross-inspired units. It was here that Harmony Gold had finally had enough of FASA and took substantial action so that their new toy line could successfully take off.

Does this particular toy look familiar at all? It should.

[img width=700 height=525]http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/images/products/in/large/C2223P0011.jpg[/img]

The court papers from Harmony Gold vs FASA two years later from 1996 continue the drama:

On January 15, 1984, Tatsunoko [The Japanese owners of the Macross property --Auth.] granted plaintiff Harmony Gold U.S.A., Inc. (â€œHarmony Goldâ€) a license to market all products in the United States based on the Macross designs except for Japanese plastic model kits. Harmony Gold subsequently acquired co-ownership of the copyrights in both the original Macross designs and any [*3] derivative works. Harmony Gold has incorporated the Macross designs into an animated television series entitled â€œRobotech.â€ Additionally, Harmony Gold has marketed, through its sublicenses, a broad array of â€œRobotechâ€ products including publications, actions figures and toys.

In or about 1984, defendant FASA created a fictional universe called â€œBattletechâ€ which formed the basis for board games, role-playing games, novels, and game systems. The original â€œBattletechâ€ game included both robotic images and model kits based on the Macross designs. FASA claims to have acquired the rights to these model kits and images from Twentieth Century Imports (â€œTCIâ€), which allegedly acquired them from Tatsunoko.

On January 31, 1985, FASA received a letter from Harmony Gold demanding that FASA cease all use of the Macross designs or risk a potential suit for copyright infringement and unfair competition. This letter sparked an exchange of correspondence between the parties including numerous cease and desist letters from Harmony Gold. Harmony Gold also demanded disclosure of the source of FASAâ€™s alleged rights in the Macross designs.

On January 13, 1995, Harmony Gold and its exclusive licensee, [*4] Playmates Toys, Inc. (â€œPlaymatesâ€), filed the instant action against defendants FASA and one of its sister companies, VWE, alleging copyright infringement under United States copyright laws, 17 U.S.C. Â§ 101 et seq., false designation of origin in violation of Section 43(a) of the Lanham Act, 15 U.S.C. Â§ 1125(a), deceptive trade practices in violation of the California Business & Professions Code Sections 17200 et seq., the Illinois Deceptive Trade Practices Act, 815 ILCS 510/1 et seq., and the Illinois Consumer Fraud and Deceptive Business Practices Act, 815 ILCS 505/1 et seq., and unfair competition under the common law. n1 Specifically, plaintiffs allege that defendants have unlawfully benefited from the use of the Macross designs which are the subject of copyrights owned and exploited by Harmony Gold and its exclusive licensee, Playmates.

Here is a copy of the court papers from the 1996 case: http://alex.kaempen.org/harmony_gold_v._fasa.html
Around this point, FASA must have thought: hey, taking completely unchanged robot designs from another series is a really, really bad idea; especially when a company might already have rights to their likenesses Stateside.

The Wikipedia article continues on: â€œAfter realizing how the use of licensed images made them vulnerable to lawsuits and afraid that such a suit would bankrupt the company, FASA made the decision to only use images owned by them and them alone.â€

Macross and Harmony Gold was so much of a problem that, as a precaution, FASA boxed up the mech designs borrowed from Fang of the Sun Dougram and Crusher Joe in order to try and prevent more legal drama.

With that, the borrowed mechs that were taken from Anime series disappeared from store shelves and in technical readouts. All of those â€˜classicâ€™ first generation Battletech designs informally became â€œUnseenâ€ for many years with very little official explanation from FASA. However, in the lore/fluff, these mechsâ€™ names were still used in stories and other publications that didnâ€™t feature picturesâ€“ they never vanished. This obviously makes sense because the entire issue concerning these mechs is their likenesses to established, licensed Animes.

Some five years passed by without too much incident but, in 2001 FASA suddenly closed their doors because they apparently felt that the genre was going downhill and wanted to get out of the game.

Wikipediaâ€™s article on FASA Corporation sheds some light onto the situation:

â€œMort Weisman [Jordanâ€™s Father, Operational Manager of FASA] had been talking of retirement for some years and his confidence in the future of the paper-based games business was low. He considered the intellectual property of FASA to be of high value but did not wish to continue working as he had been for the last decade or more. Unwilling to wrestle with the complexities of dividing up the going concern, the owners issued a press release on January 25, 2001 announcing the immediate closure of the business.â€

It was around that point that Microsoft obtained FASA Interactive, FASA Corporationâ€™s video game department. This is why Mechcommander 2 and the Mechwarrior 4 games were so notably published by Microsoft, not to mention Mech Assault. FASA, however, did still exist as a corporation and they held onto the rights of Battletech and its various mechs to try and prevent more legal trouble and intellectual theft.

â€œWhen Microsoft acquired the FASA Interactive subsidiary [in 2001-2002 just in time for Mechcommander 2], [L. Ross] Babcock went with that company. After the sale of Virtual World, Jordan [Weisman] turned his attention to the founding of a new games venture called WizKids.â€

Wizkids. Does that ring any bells? Weisman continued with his tabletop Battletech/Mechwarrior gaming and brought us the Mechwarrior: Dark Age series among other products in that timeline.

In the early 2000s, Wizkids suddenly released the â€œProject Phoenix: Technical Readout.â€ In the book, Wizkids and Randall N. Bills established a canon explanation as to why these â€˜Unseen Mechsâ€™ had been redesigned and, as a result of their â€˜modern upgrades,â€™ their appearances changed somewhat (as to dodge legal troubles, naturally).

Check out the Old vs New Battlemasters.

[img width=300 height=196]http://www.qqmercs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/battlemaster-comp-300x196.jpg[/img]

Sarna.net puts it best: â€œThese â€˜Mechs remained unseen until the publication of Technical Readout: Project Phoenix, which presented â€œredesigns,â€ allowing them to be used freely once again.â€

On a similar but different note: itâ€™s also important to remind everyone why Harmony Gold reared its ugly head once more back in 2009. Apparently the Warhammer featured in the Mechwarrior trailer wasnâ€™t redesigned/modified sufficiently and that ruffled some feathers. Harmony Gold wasted no time in bringing out tons of DCM takedowns of the trailer. However, since Mechwarrior Online hasnâ€™t been using any Macross-inspired designs, there shouldnâ€™t be a problem.

So, perhaps as long as the mechsâ€™ designs are sufficiently altered, maybe PGI will begin offering and releasing even more Reseen mechs in the future? I for one am very excited at the possibility of these classic designs being introduced and I canâ€™t wait to see what could be released next.

Who knows what the future will bring?
Click to expand...

Source: http://www.qqmercs.com/?p=2859

skidog2k3 · Sep 30, 2014

I think PGI could keep the spirit of the mech without infringing on HG's IP. Call it a Marauder and you can be sure that HG will be looking closely... as they would with Warhammer, Rifleman, Longbow.....
Silly thing is regardless of how much it is redesigned HG can still file suit, and regardless of weather it wins or not, it will still cost PGI money defending, which may be the source of the fear. Legal battles without big guns can destroy companies.

Nice to see you guys again.... nice to be back.

skidog2k3 · Sep 30, 2014

[member=2826]Blagg Zear[/member]

Good article Blagg

Blagg Zear · Sep 30, 2014

skidog2k3 said: ↑

...Call it a Marauder and you can be sure that HG will be looking closely... as they would with Warhammer, Rifleman, Longbow.....
Silly thing is regardless of how much it is redesigned HG can still file suit, and regardless of weather it wins or not, it will still cost PGI money defending, which may be the source of the fear. Legal battles without big guns can destroy companies.
Click to expand...

Exactly what i have thought. Name should not be problem, but HG could stil go on court and try to destroy PGI.

Nice to see you guys again.... nice to be back.
Click to expand...

Dito!

enileph · Sep 30, 2014

Archwright said: ↑

Harmony Gold defends their Macross license extremely aggressively. If MW:O releases a Marauder, they will get sued. That's the sad reality of IP litigation. Then again we did get the Locust, so maybe there's an arrangement worked out.
Click to expand...

Yes, fucking harmony fucking gold is a bitch when it comes to that. (yes, if you are HG people and reading this, fuck you)
That having said, they have no right to the name marauder or the stats, only the look/design of it.

So technically it can fly. Another way is to go for the non old Macross version, like those closer to the newer macross, which HG holds no rights too, and the japanese do not care about similar mech things as far as HG, since that type of design is common in anime now.

Magnificent Bastard · Sep 30, 2014

New IS package? What? Please no. I'd like to see MWO go at least a full year between mech packages and one was just announced. Ideally I'd like to see all of the current proposed mechs make it into the game (for c-bills) and several more before PGI even thinks about announcing another mech pack.

As for Marauder... sure. It would be nice. Hardly necessary but nice.

The Verge · Sep 30, 2014

If they were to rename the mech, just rename it to the Marder, after the series of Tank Destroyers Germany developed and deployed in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_II
[img width=700 height=422]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-197-1238-16%2C_Russland-Mitte%2C_Panzerj%C3%A4ger_%22Marder_II%22.jpg[/img]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_III
[img width=700 height=543]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Marder_III_tank_destroyer.jpg[/img]

you can really see the similarities in the mech design compared to the TD.

TheDevilsIncarnate · Sep 30, 2014

First off, god no please, my wallet is still recovering from clans.

Secondly, never going to happen. HG will rip their dicks off if they try or even mention it.

Michael · Sep 30, 2014

As I said. PGI doesn't have the stones. Right now they are letting everyone else dictate their business plan. It is what it is.

RA2lover · Sep 30, 2014

i wouldn't rename them - the name is legally owned, and the battletech universe has the "hetzer" as a ground vehicle already.

DogSoldieR · Oct 1, 2014

I whole heartedly support this! MARAUDER MARAUDER MARAUDER!

:wub:

Nice write up Blagg!

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Can we have the Marauder pls? (e.g. included in a new IS Package)

What do you want?

Original Marauder (unchanged, simply Original pls!)

PGI can redesign, but Name must be Original

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Can we have the Marauder pls? (e.g. included in a new IS Package)

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