Clan tech vs IS tech

What did you vote and what are your reasons?

 

I think that clan tech would be balanced, except that MW:O is so heavily weighted towards big 'mechs with an absurd amount of ranged firepower.

For instance, I was on Tourmaline, and I started taking damage almost immediately because the enemy team had Clan LLases. So, basically, the IS is better in a brawl because they're (generally) faster and do more pinpoint damage, but that doesn't matter if you never get to close the distance.

 

IS is in general slower, less agile, has worse weapons, worse heat dissipation and clan xl = IS xl, just better. Not to mention the stupid amount of damage flying around with everyone boating 90281490 weapons that are plain better. IS having better customisation capabilities do not balance the situation in any way.

Piloting my stalker/atlas is a frustrating experience right now. One wrong peek and you find yourself being painted by 8+ lasers or several autocannons throwing lead at you, dropping your side torso in under a second. And i do have clan tech.

 

I'd disagree with the first part, mainly because clan seriously hurts for real fast movers...seen quite a few clanners get torn apart by the IS Light Brigade. The assaults also feel more sluggish than Stalker/Banshee to me, but that could just be due to the fact that I play my Jenner a lot

 

DWF is a landwhale, but it compensates by having a lot of weaponry. Warhawk is agile. TBR is extremely agile for its weight class. Dunno about summoner, but stormcrow is a very fast medium, with raven-like torso twist capabilities and almost heavy class weaponry. Clan lights indeed are too slow.

 

Im getting good results in my Illya (3AC5, 3ML, XL280, radar deprivation+AMS).
The range of the AC5s make up for the lack of speed and JJs and radar depr. seems to be a must have...

 

Pretty much this, except that i do believe that absurd amount of firepower in mid and close can be overpowered too, with some ranged weapons as backup.

Right now, anything that an IS mech can do, a Clan one can do the same better and at longer ranges, so its basically unfair.

 

I think the Clan tech is decently balanced, far better than I thought PGI would be able to manage.

But lets face it, it is far superior to IS technology in pretty much every way. The only way the IS will have a chance is if they have a tonnage advantage in game. Hopefully they'll properly implement this in game.

The one advantage IS has is the ability to have superior speed. However, this comes at a great cost. And you have to work to capitalize on it.

In future though, this gap will lessen as the IS catches up.

 

Clan tech wins at energy weapons, especially true taking into the account of DHS. Indeed this is the one maoy advantage of clan tech. This is especially true since alot of clan mech is limited in tonnage due to oversized high rating XL and loads of JJ. Longer scan time does mean showing your head for a bit longer, but the range and damage is worth it. They are hotter, but since all clan mech have some extra DHS preinstalled that should not be a problem, and DHS are small if you want to add them.

The missile tech is actually quite balanced. The SRM is lighter, but not as different as one may imagine, the high level SRM is not as deadly as one would think. High level streaks have high heat and long cycle time making them not OP. LRM is similar I would say. cLRM is lighter, and yes they induce shaking better, BUT they are really easy prey for AMS. A IS LRM45 is enough to hit withat least half those shots on average against AMS, if not more. But cLRM is going to get AMS'd much more than that. The close range cLRM damage is minimal enough to allow for some defense but not to be used as a means of effective attack.

Ballistics is where IS mch shine. cMG is good for behing light, and cGauss is nice. But other than that the gatling gun effect of cAC is not impressive. Sure it would still do loads of deadly damage on stationary target, against moving ones the damage is going to spread. To compensate you might need to bring more guns, which oly the Direwolf or Timberwolf can do. low level cLBX5 and cLBX2 sucks. On top of that UAC10 and UAC20 incurs much higher heat as well as ghostheat. I the ammo switch system comes out this might be better though. But still, longer range cAC is unreliable, unlike IS AC that can punch holes through many things. Simply think of 2x AC5 vs 2x cAC5 and you know the difference. And remember, clanmech can barely carry 2x cUAC5 in full armor while there are many medium IS mech that carries UAC5 with relative ease in full armor.

On the other stuff. TC is great, but takes up space due to the rigid formation of crist slots. AMS is good for the increased ammo count. That having said, due to the pod system most clan mech would not carry the pod with AMS, while most IS mech can carry AMS with ease.

To end this, clan tech is powerful, but they are on average good for more sustained damage rather than a hit and run due to longer exposture time.

Clan mech building is more restricted than you might think, here is the amount of free tonnage for building in fullish armor, and DHS count:

Clan Mech Building tonnage (in fullish armor):
Adder :16 tons 10x DHS
Kit Fox : 14.5 tons 10x DHS
Nova : 15.5 tons 14x DHS 5x JJ
Stormcrow : 23 tons 10x DHS
Summoner :21 tons 14 DHS 5x JJ
Timberwolf :27.5 tons 15 DHS
Warhawk : 32.5 tons 20 DHS
Direwolf : 50.5 tons 15 DHS

From the above one can see that the tonnage for building is actually quite low for some clan mech.
To compare, a Shadowhawk with XL300 and endo have 25 tons for building, and a Catapract with STD300 and endo have 28 tons. On top of that you can opt for a lower rating engine.
There is nothing in the clan mech of meidum class or bellow to be able to carry 2x cAC/cUAC effectively. In fact, only the assault and Timberwolf can do it.

Most clan mech are fast, except for what SHOULD be fast, the lights! The clan light mechs are turtle slow, more like a faster light medium than a light. Sure they have more firepower, but even a faster IS medium can catch up with them. clan light mech moves at a slow pace of 106.9 mph max, while any self respecting (aka not stock pieces of shit) "slow" IS light moves past 120+mph without tweak easily (a regular Raven, with tweak this is 140mph also). With tweak 140+mph is easily the average. Thanks to the ligher energy weapon though, these guys can do some reasonable damage. The kitfox is good if you take that AMS/ECM arm allowing for a decent support. This is one of the few clan mech where an AMS pod is worth all the trouble.

On Medium, Nova is actually not that fast, rather, it is slower than many common IS medium builds. The Stormcrow is fast though, but the lack of JJ balance out things. That having said, stormcrow is super flexable in the builds, with enough room to customize the yinyan as you like it.

Clan Heavy is fast, but not exceedly so. a Max 89mph is a bit faster than the 82mph of typical catapult/boomjager with a XL300. That having said, the firepower of a summoner is nowhere near these two. IS heavy like Orion clocks at ~70 mph depending on build, but those are much more heavier armored with lots of big guns. Timberwolf however, is a whold different story. Same top speed, but lots of room, tonnage and choices for big kaboom. There is a reason why the Mad Cat is popular, practical machines, really flexable, all those on top of the wonderful Lore value.

For clan assaults, you get two totally different choice. Fast and deadly Warhawk, although critslots can be a wee bit limited. They are great for most situations though. On the other end there is the Direwolf. REALLY REALLY SLOW, but basically a moving star destroyer. This thing can kill anything by just looking at it basically, BUT a light/medium (or really fast heavy) will run around it in circles without getting hit, ever. I have taken down an atlas and then a battlemaster (full armor!) head on with my armor being still in red while piloting one of these turtles.

 

you are mostly right enileph
but do not forget, most clan tech is lighter than IS weaponry and requires less space
for example: cGauss 12t vs (IS)Gauss 15t

nevertheless there is quite an imbalance for loadouts as i see clan energy weapons quite overpowered
the ballistics and missile seems balanced to me, not the energy weapons, although the heat is fine there

 

Honestly, I can see both sides of the energy weapon argument...my DWF Ghost Walker's cERLLs can hit for max damage up to 919 meters with the TC I have in there, and they get a damage boost to go with it. But that is countered by their incredibly long beam time, so anyone with half a brain can spread most/all of that damage out over 5+ components. They are nasty for anyone dumb enough to stare at the shinies, but offer less direct killing power vs. smarter enemies. As with any laser, they are at their best when someone runs away, able to tear through that back armor with a vengeance.

That said, I do find the shorter beam time of IS weapons is often a boon in comparison...using my Jenner or Ember, or my Spider/Raven/Cicada snipers, I find I get more of the damage where I want it to be focused. Torso twisting spreads it a little, but the momentary hesitation it takes for reflex to kick in tends to build up more damage in one spot with the IS lasers. Since I tend to load more lasers on my fastest, sneakiest mechs (read: lights), I find that the combination of their speed and quicker shot time really makes up a lot of ground versus the clan laser range and power. That said, 90% of the time when I see a light or other laserboat in PUG games, they are doing the same thing: running directly at me or someone else at an unchanging, oblique angle, where it's extremely easy to focus a barrage at their CT. At some point, there is a definite tactics gap that some people just don't understand how to avoid...and when they figure out that changing their speed and weaving around a bit makes them a bitch to hit, suddenly they become better players (at least in their lights).

The one energy weapon that I think still works better for IS is definitely the PPC...the splash can be nice for the cERPPC, but the pinpoint precision for the IS version melds much better with their (mostly) superior ballistics.

Speaking of those, even with the cGauss being lighter than the IS Gauss, I don't think it gives that much more of an advantage; with the tonnage limit on most clan mechs, a lot of them can't really attach a cGauss and utilize it worth a damn; same goes for a few chassis and most heavy ballistics (I'm looking at you, Nova). While the DWF "Ritz" build with 2PPC/2 Gauss has been rather popular, and the similar 2ppc/1gauss TBR build along with it, I've noticed far more people who are starting to load in LBX instead of straight AC/UAC on clan mechs. This has also changed a lot of the play style, and I see a lot more brawling going on in my matches, instead of the good ol' Poptart Meta. Honestly, I prefer the brawling...it's more interesting and more fun. Most of the time.

 

We had a thread going earlier looking at game scores of IS vs clan mechs. Theres not too much insight from my personal numbers though, as I've been exclusively playing timberwolves and the raven 3L since the clan invasion. We all tend to agree that IS lights are better than their clan counterparts and the timberwolf is a fantastic platform.

I can't say I expected to eclipse my 2D2 average score, especially given that the average number of available hitpoints to damage is most probably lower (due to 3/3/3/3). I've really only gotten fully comfortable with the build in the last 25 matches also (basically since mastering the variant), as opposed to the 2D2 where I basically played ~67% of the games at top form.

Code:

262/274 = 95.6% solo drops since clan invasion

Mech	Games	W:L	Kills	KDR	Damage
-------------------------------------------------
TBR-C	 60	1.40	135	3.80	654.25
SHD-2D2 107 	1.23	152	2.53	606.13	-
TBR-S	 71	1.37	102	2.91	592.97
RVN-3L	 89	2.48	165	4.34	579.29	*
TBR-P	 54	1.16	 91	2.84	568.09
RVN-3L	129	1.88	202	3.48	533.26
CTF-3D 	 69 	1.16	127	2.89	517.84	-
SHD-5M	 40	0.74	 63	2.63	490.38	-
VTR-9S	 47	1.24	 78	3.07	475.12	-
FS9-E	 90	1.32	130	2.28	428.13	-

- Inactive
* Since clan launch

[size=8pt]Edit: I had a good night in the TBR-C, so it put a bit more distance over the 2D2. Average damage jumped 45 pts in 6 games

 

Nice info, thanks

 

I mention it a lot in game lobbies, but my Jenner and Ember still have the best overall scores of any of my mechs, including the clan mechs...I can't say for sure how many of the matches in my lights have been since the clan invasion, but I've played quite a few. My overall numbers look like this...:

[table]
[tr]
[td]Jenner F: 216 total games, 1.35 win/loss, 3.10 KDR, average damage per game is about 420
Ember: 117 total games, 1.76 win/loss, 3.61 KDR, average damage about 397
Kit Foxes (all variants): 79 total games, .71 win/loss, 1.43 KDR, average damage about 341
Nova (all): 128 total games, 1.1 win/loss, 1.63 KDR, average damage about 377
Dire Wolf (all): 163 total games, 1.5 win/loss, 2.33 KDR, average damage about 454[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]

I'd estimate about 80-100 of the Jenner games and about 40-50 Ember games have been since clan, and they still have the best numbers. Sure, I've caught an unlucky alpha to the CT or leg in those games from time to time, but they still outclass even my best DWF in terms of consistency. My real point, though, is that over time a lot of clan mechs (for most players who, like me, are probably average at best) are going to have about the same damage totals as IS mechs that they use as well...we're going to have games where we just don't roll the competition. A lot of games in the PUG-o-sphere are going to fall along that bell curve...but the people you will hear whine most about "pay to win" the most are the guys who run in a straight line at a Dire Wolf with their Jenner. In other words, the corpses.

For shits and giggles, btw, my total games in a Summoner was 1...I did 563 damage and got zero kills, and my team lost Statistically speaking, it's my worst mech right now...more because I haven't been eager to play Summoners

 

in the long run the balance is fine for me, even if there are a lot of tweaks to be done

sorry to go OT but my main concern right now in the game is the matchmaker
grouping with 1-3 friends has been made so extremly frustrating after the patch they changed the group queue, you either go alone or go BIG, 9/10 games you face a 10+ grp stomping anything it sees

we all know that a good player can reach good numbers in pretty much any mech, no matter if IS or Clan tech, but the game is supposed to be fun, i dont have a problem losing at all but spending an evening getting stomped each game is just insane

just had to vent my frustration a bit as i've 20 games with like 18 loses

 

I agree. This seems to be the new meta.

 

Honestly, as much as the PUG queue makes me cry sometimes ("why are you just STANDING THERE!? Why are you walking backwards!!??"), I imagine it's the best play right now unless you're in a 10 man. I can't even imagine how shitty it is as a 2-man now. One of the upsides of being forever alonewolf.

 

The really unbalanced stuff is IS LLas/ERLLas versus the ER-Mlas...does any of you still use them ?

They look like the most useless weapon to me after the clan invasion. And I'm infact performing much worse on LLas/ERLLas boats, while perfoming the same on other builds.

 

I run 2 mechs (Kit Fox and DWF-A) exclusively with cERLLs and do well. The KFX is just the straight up 3 cERLL build with ECM (amazing sniper), the DWF is the "Ghost Walker" build in that subforum. cERLL is amazing when you use it right

 

These are probably special cases, but the Super Chicken 2xERLLas RVN-3L still plays. So does the newly tweaked Awesome in any kind of laser boat configuration.

Since clan invasion:

Code:

Mech	Games	W:L	Kills	KDR	Damage
RVN-3L	 89	2.48	165	4.34	579.29