How do you think the Clan Invasion will be implemented?

I'm not very hopeful about this. The recent series of nerfs shows how PGI intends to handle this: A quick patchjob instead of a working solution.
They heatnerfed lasers/PPCs/AC20s and Missiles. Then they turned Gauss into a cannon that doesn't shoot when you pull the trigger, go figure. They made Jump Jets a mostly dead weight, but at least reintroduced some utility to them by making terrain more difficult to navigate. Only sucks now to NOT have jump jets.
The other day, I played a newly acquired mech in Stock loadout - it was decidedly un-fun. Standard heatsinks have been rendered almost entirely useless by the heat nerf. Some mechs can't equip according to slot layout and weight allowance due to the heat nerf - isn't that what the heat sinks were supposed to address in the first place?

If I look at the entire package, I see this: Instead of asking "why are players using this or this build", they just nerf it in order to make players NOT use it anymore. They are punishing the players for playing the game too well. I can't help but asking myself: Do these guys really want me to pay money for their product ? Or are they trying to make mit press the little [X] in upper right corner and move on to Path Of Exile, SW:TOR, Star Trek Online, GW2 (just a selection of games I have installed on my PC besides MWO).

Now some of you might say "weeeell, but thisorthis weapon was really so overwhelming..." of COURSE it is. That's the whole point. If you drive a mech you want it to perform well. That's fun.
Make it so that it doesn't perform anymore - unfun.
Make it so that players need to "train" or create workarounds - unfun.
Make it so that you NEED to use the latest FOTM glass cannon in order to kill anything - unfun.
Make it so that weapons make so little damage that taking cover or maneuvering is no longer important - unfun.
Make it so that kills are only achieved if a mech is gangbanged, with the kill going to a random player - unfun, and announcing another round of PUG stomping as well because that playstyle favours premade groups with TS.
If that didn't convince you, if you still say "yes, but the other day I got so kicked in the groin by this UBER build ..." - there will ALWAYS be such a build. Nerfing it doesn't change that, it merely makes the wheel go round another round, while taking away a bit of the fun. I say again, you will not solve the underlying problem by making effective builds or tactics ineffective.

If PGI really want to salvage this game they need to come up with more than a few nerfs they please to call "balancing".
They need to make maps so that there are actually multiple tactical possibilities.
They need to get in gear and FINALLY create some kind of game lobby where random players can get together in a group and assign roles *before* the drop.
They need to fix their bloody matchmaker so it doesn't drop an almost exclusive Heavy/Assault team into a huge capture map like Alpine Peaks and give the opposite team 4 lights.
They need to make it so that you can preselect your map - that way you would actually see different builds, not "suitsall" builds that somehow work on most maps.

TL;DR: Too bad for you, you missed something

 

Select mps would be hard, an alternative would be having a map schedule per day, so you can at least have an idea what maps you will drop on. You can make it a theme too, like river city day and night for one day, the other day you get frozen city and alpine. Makes sense too. That way you still have a bit of randomness in the maps, but you can at least mar your maps more in tune wirh the maps.

 

There could be some kind of "campaign mode" - let's say they create 3 or 4 maps that are all based upon the same planet. Rotate the campaigns on a daily basis. I think it would be doable.

 

I believe that PGI will make Clan weapons just like IS weapons. The only difference will be the packaging.

How can you balance Clan tech against IS tech without nerfing it?

 

We are pretty far off topic here, but I can't resist such a juicy target. Wall of text incoming:

I disagree with this wholesale. They DID ask the question, "why are so many players using this build" and came up with the same answer everyone else with a pulse and a brain did: they are obviously OP, make the game un-fun, and are harming (in a big way) the balance of the game. "Playing the game too well" is a ludicrous statement. You're saying that min/maxing is representative of skill, but you know this to be false. You know that performing well on a balanced playing field will always be "harder" than playing well on an unbalanced one, when everyone is allowed to stand on the unbalanced side if they wish. Are you insisting then that skilled players only use min/max high alpha builds? Even pre-nerf? I know many 12-man premades on ComStar New Avalon that would disagree with you.

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]
Now some of you might say "weeeell, but thisorthis weapon was really so overwhelming..." of COURSE it is. That's the whole point. If you drive a mech you want it to perform well. That's fun.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what I'm reading here. It sounds like you're arguing for a lack of balance. It sounds like you would perfer everyone to drive the one obviously superior build (whatever it happens to be at any given moment.) That's obviously silly, though, so I'll need you to explain this better.

This is the single point that I keep seeing people on mechspecs bringing up, and it's the one I understand the least. People here generally seem to have the belief that if their favorite FOTM build is nerfed, the game won't be fun. Or that if they nerf these obviously over-played and broken builds, that somehow makes weapons "unusable." But they're not. Perfect example: UAC5s. They're just not the BEST OPTION ALL THE TIME FOR EVERY SITUATION ANY MORE. And that's a GOOD THING. If you don't think so, I don't think you're playing the right game.

Remember when LRMs were broken? Badly? Like those two days back in March when EVERYONE had missile boats and the game was a complete shit show because they over-buffed LRM damage? This is the same thing. Buffing and nerfing. It's part of the process. If you don't like it, you should check out a game that doesn't ever patch. Like Contra, maybe. (Nerf the Spread!)

I was running a HBK-4H with an AC20, 2 SLas, 2MLas earlier today. I was racking up so much damage/so many kills in that thing with just the AC20 it made me wonder how the game was even playable before the PepsiGauss nerf (considering that my hunch has a max effective range of 270m). To be able to do almost double that out to 610m seems absolutely inconceivable to me.

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]

Make it so that it doesn't perform anymore - unfun.
[/quote]

So you're saying that there are weapons that aren't working correctly post-nerf? Like what? PPCs/ER PPCs? Still doing 10 damage. With unlimited ammo. And huge ranges. They're just hot. Is it true you can't faceroll them anymore? Yes. But unusable? Give me a break. Working perfectly fine on my K2. Just have to know how to manage heat.

No, what you're saying here is that that one build that you liked because it was so easy to annihilate scrubby PUGs with doesn't work any more. How terrible for you.

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]

Make it so that players need to "train" or create workarounds - unfun.
[/quote]

Here again, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. It seems insane to me that you would argue against someone needing to practice with a weapons system/build to be proficient with it. Do you really want everything to be super easy to use and wildly accessible to any player all the time? I don't. I'd perfer, if I have to live in a world where a certain vocal percentage of the population viamently argues for one-shot instakill alphastrikes or nonstop, easy-to-achieve extreme DPS (WAY outside the scope of BT, btw), that at least like those builds would require a lot more cursory skill than simply point-and-click.

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]

Make it so that you NEED to use the latest FOTM glass cannon in order to kill anything - unfun.

[/quote]

FOTM builds are what are getting nerfed. Don't get that bit confused, because it's important.

Balancing those weapons is the opposite of this. Past FOTM builds (SplatCats, 2xPPC+guass, trips UAC5s come to mind) were only encouraged by unbalanced weapons and builds. Think about it. People generally run whatever is most OP at any given moment. If they didn't, PGI wouldn't have the data (via forum feedback, or hard in-game math) to even realize these weapons need to be balanced. FOTM builds, and their prevelance, exist ENTIRELY because of HOW (relatively) OP THEY ARE IN COMPARISON TO OTHER WEAPONS. That's the ONLY reason they get nerfed! You think PGI is nerfing them to make the game less fun?!

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]

Make it so that weapons make so little damage that taking cover or maneuvering is no longer important - unfun.

[/quote]

Do you really believe that this is a threat? What weapon got it's damage turned down? LRMs/SRMs have had their numbers tweaked recently (months ago) but beyond that, I can't think of any other nerfs in this regard. Please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not though). Past that, if you're going to argue that weapons, because of nerfs to things like projo velcoity, heat, etc., have become "worthless", I'd say only that you're not doing it right. Everything is usable. If you can't use them, that's a player problem, not a balance problem.

I dare you to not use any cover in your next drop. See how that works out for you.

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]

If that didn't convince you, if you still say "yes, but the other day I got so kicked in the groin by this UBER build ..." - there will ALWAYS be such a build. Nerfing it doesn't change that, it merely makes the wheel go round another round, while taking away a bit of the fun. I say again, you will not solve the underlying problem by making effective builds or tactics ineffective.

[/quote]

Interesting. What is that crazy OP meta build now? I don't see anyone using a particular build in any game-changing way with any more or less frequency than any other this past week. What I see instead is people taking more balanced builds, and having to work together. I don't think that any weapon is broken at the moment. I use nearly, if not every, weapon in the game on one mech or another. You could make small arguments for certain weapons, like say the LPLas running a smidge too hot, but none of those types of cases make anything unusable or broken.

When people say things like "UAC5s GOT NERFED TO DEATH," what they REALLY mean is that now they can't be facerolled anymore. Now they require a little more effort/skill to use. Now they don't just belt out free kills. Strange that people here seem to dislike when you actually have to work for kills. What they seem to want is to feel as if they're fighting paper mache mechs, all with cookie-cutter clone builds. Another example of this type of game is Call of Duty. Just saying.

[quote author=Marec link=topic=3442.msg21684#msg21684 date=1379173725]

If PGI really want to salvage this game they need to come up with more than a few nerfs they please to call "balancing".
They need to make maps so that there are actually multiple tactical possibilities.
They need to get in gear and FINALLY create some kind of game lobby where random players can get together in a group and assign roles *before* the drop.
They need to fix their bloody matchmaker so it doesn't drop an almost exclusive Heavy/Assault team into a huge capture map like Alpine Peaks and give the opposite team 4 lights.
They need to make it so that you can preselect your map - that way you would actually see different builds, not "suitsall" builds that somehow work on most maps.
[/quote]

This is all coming with UI 2.0. All of it. Every single point posted. A few more weeks, another month, whatever. It's coming.

TL;DR: The game is as balanced as it's ever been. No faceroll builds at the moment. And now you find yourself in a game where Min/Max doesn't really matter anymore and varied engagement ranges cause for varied builds (ohnoes!! but i just wantd 2 bang mai face against teh keybords tho!!). I know that's sad/scary for a lot of people, but it's much more representative of a mech simulator (the one we've been waiting for for like a decade). You'll just have to deal with it.

 

The word poorly comes to mind...

A. you cant nerf the mechs themselves without invalidating one of the main points of the clans... otherwise it should have been set in 3039...

B. So that leaves metagame balancing to drops... (I'm a huge favor of this just in general... wanna know why there was so many PPC/Guass builds running around..? Oh yeah... no weight limits, which is so BT... not having a predetermined Battle Value or Weight Total to start the game with!!!!!)

C. Real penalties for acting like a Dezgra... like no c-bills or loyalty or xp for the event if you violate the Clan Honor Code... which means yes, ppl could all run around with awesome mechs but they'll get nothing for it... and anyone who has played TT games with Level 1 Honor Code Clanner vs IS knows the IS can & will r*pe your face in plenty of situations... Tukayyid being the best example of this... all Level 1 clanners lost badly... only wolf and ghost bear who weren't operating at level 1 anymore won... they were at 3 & 2 respectively, which is why Wolf won both & Bear won 1 of 2....

So... balancing can be done... easily, maybe not but it is possible... with clear indicators on your HUD on if it's a legal target or not... you can choose if you just wanna smash people for no reward (and have some kind of punishment system for being a worthless stravag as well) or accept the handicap as part of the trade for a much better mech...

But none of that will be done since BT has already created and balanced the clans within the system... PGI will create some fiat system that makes no sense, is poorly implemented, never explained, and then just nerf everything that gets complained about until we are playing a not very good version of CoD since that game is very successful and profitable which is the main (& maybe only) concern PGI has...

Nathan

 

HAHA... like if we will care about sheet like honor. WAKE UP! This is not a role playing game! Roleplays are only fun with friends, and for random people you meet on the internet, you just need to cut them down like carrots and make them scream for the mercy that will never come. Anything goes as long as it is not cheating. And builds are not cheating cause it is within the rues of this game.

If you want a bunch of honor code sheet it means someone will have to be a judge or mediator for the gam and things like that, which is not going to happen. That means there will be LOTS OF RAGE in all parties, yelling at judges and what not, or we can just outright 4chan that dude if he is annoying enough. Pretty sure no one wants to do that for free, and PGI will not pay for people to do things like that.

As for clan. Balancing by sides would work though.
You pitch 9 Clan mech against 12 IS mechs, or something like that. Then everyone can max out all they want, and it my be balanced.

Fact is, WE WILL MIN/MAX TO THE MAXIMUM THAT THE SYSTEM WOULD ALLOW. And that is how builds are done for all games, be is here, or some MMO. You can try nerf one build, but others will DEFINITELY come. Basically the whole nerf/buff cycle is not going to work if your sole purpose is to stop powerful builds. Trying to balance weapons is a good thing, but right now they tend to WAY over nerf/buff things every time. That means either people stop using the whole thing (cause it is nerfed to crap) or people rush into suing the weapon of the week (cause it is over-buffed)

Unless you give us different battlefields that would require different build sets, then a meta min/max build will kinda of work in all situations. More ways to play and win the game, and more different types of builds will emrge, and more fun and diversity.

 

I need to stop creating such long posts. No one here has the attention span to read them, and people only continue to say the same things they say on every other thread and forum on this website, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Things like, "BALANCE IS IMPOSSIBLE, SO STOP TRYING!" and "WE'LL ALWAYS FIND A WAY TO GET AROUND DEVELOPER INTENT!", both of which sound really short-sighted and frankly childish to me.

I've never seen a group of people with such a fervent committal to NOT fixing problems in a game that they enjoy. It's really strange to me.

 

It wouldn't require moderators... be part of your targeting system... at Level 1 you can not shoot at more than one target at a time without violating it... so it'll be part of the game mechanic itself... if you dont abide by the rules you will get nothing for the match you are currently in and then have to fight some kind of Trial of Position against a really powerful AI before you can drop in that mech again...

if they bring back a redesigned Repair & Rearm system that means you'll have to go through 2-5 fights rebuilding your mech with no money for it and waste close to 30 mins between drops... all part of the game mechanic itself that requires no moderation... just a simple switch in the programming tree if you fire at a legal target vs an illegal target...

how many people will continue that behavior when they are being puniahed for it as opposed to being rewarded for... maybe 2-3% of the whole... everybody else will stop doing the behavior that doesn't reward them... psychology 101...

Nathan

 

And then only few people would play it, less income.... BOOM! Game gone.
People would do so many cheesy things and the whine would be unstoppable. Honor and things are never going to be a part in online gaming.
That is the reason why they remove the repair and rearm system. I don't mind it, but I remember that when the system is enforced I was just throwing out cheaply armored commando most of the time since that is most effective at grinding cbills (or the occasional trial mech when it is the same as a model I have), and as you know when most people are only concerning about saving their own skin rather than winning things can be a bit boring.

Oh, and you don't need a targeter to play the game, I mostly play the game without locks, it feels better that way, then again I also rarely use modules if at all. I would Min/Max my mech all I want, cause that is what mechbay is for. But I won't ever touch the 3pv even if it helps me peek accross the corner. As for modules, I don't like the idea of it too much so I rarely use it (I would use cap accelerator and things from time to time, but I rarely if ever put on my seismic). In this game everyone have access to all mech models (except hero) and all equipment. So someone running a mech with an inferior build IS ALL HIS FAULT. It is not hard to build a few complete mechs, even if you go entirely without MC. n The newbie bonus would ensure you getting at least 1-2 fully tuned mechs, the rest is just xp. You grind out cbills while leveling your tuned mech.

NUMBERS! that is a good balancer. It makes sense too. Less Clan mech against a bigger number of IS mech. That way you get a good gun game, while being somewhat fair. Better yet, you sign up for two rounds in a row, round two you swap sides (yes in a 9 vs 12 then 3 guys are not going to swap, but it is all good) That way it would be fun for everyone.

Another way would be MATCH BY BV. That way you use a BV value rather then just simple classes and tonnage. Makes more sense too.

 

After a conversation with a friend yesterday, this is *my* take, were I making the decisions.

Being a Clanner:
- Everyone has the ability to be a Clan player, regardless of K/D or W/L. You can select via drop-down menu in UI 2.0 whether you want to play Clan or Inner Sphere. If you play IS, the game is what you've already been playing. If you play Clan, we'll go from there.

- While playing Clan, you only have access to Clan mechs and Clan technology. Vice Versa. While yes, IS 'Mechs with Clan-Tech weapons is canon in universe, in MWO we have people that have several hundred million c-bills saved up. All of those will be converted into clan-tech equipment for all of their 'Mechs. Nothing doing. Otherwise, Clan-Tech, regardless of how expensive, will be just like the DHS tax for competitive builds.

- Since you can choose at any point, outside of a drop, while logged in whether or not you wish to play Clan or Inner Sphere, we get around 'Mechs that were purchased with MC versus C-Bills. That is, if a player switched to Clan, would they keep all their IS mechs? They shouldn't. But if people aren't switching permanently, we don't have to worry about it.

- Currency. Clan uses Honor Points in lieu of C-Bills. You're earning the right to new equipment/ new loadouts.

- OmniMechs. Since MWO Mechs are, by their nature, already vaguely Omni, something different has to be done with OmniMechs. One idea is that when you 'puchase' an Omni, you get to pick which load-out you get. Prime - Whatever. This tells you what the hardpoints you have for that mech. Later you can earn other load-outs with Honor Points. Now, the way to make this differ from just being 'It's the same as buying another mech...' is in the CW drops. *If* they get the Dropship mode, then everytime you spawn, you can pick your load-out per Omni, limited only by the number of load-outs you've earned. (I.E. If I have Prime, A, B, C and D - I can choose before drop which of the five I want to start with and every time when respawning.)

- Zellbringen. It isn't a penalty to break Zell. Instead, when playing Clan, there are no Kill Assist bonuses to be had and kills are worth the equivalent of a Kill + Assist and then some.

- Drops. Clan Drops are always 10 mechs, regardless of being Clan vs Clan or Clan vs IS.

Lastly:

- When Clans are first introduced, allow all players the ability to convert a certain amount of the C-Bills to Honor Points. This is a one time thing, once you've done the conversion it's done. No switching back. *Alternatively* make it a two way street and charge MC for the convenience of doing so.

So that's my initial thoughts on Clans. It's likely there are things I have overlooked, but to me this seemed reasonable.

 

NO. JUST NO. JUST SAY NO TO A PERMANENT SWITCH.
Making players staying on Clan or IS permanently is not a good idea. That would mean pople having to open another account, one on IS, one on Clan. Allowing everyone to play both is more fun, and better business for PGI also. Another obvious reason not to switch over people permanently is that some people purchase their mech with MC, others have Hero mechs. It would be stupid to have an Ilya in a clan rooster. But deleting a player's Ilya, there would be hell to pay since it is purchased by MC. A completely separate mechbay hanger would be the way to do it, as well as "currency"

A more realistic way to do it would be keeping the two types of mech totally separate.
Your IS mech and equipment cannot be used by the clan mech, and vice versa.

Basically it is another different section of the Mechbay, kinda of like the current trial mech vs normal mech. IOW a completely separate Mechbay Hanger. Your cbills does not translate over either, Clan mech purchase uses another currency, let's say "honor points". MC will, obviously. Same goes for GXP (since you can buy those with XP conversion)

So basically it is two different thing on the same account. I would say allowing translation from cbills to Clan honor by MC, and vice versa, which would make sense also.

So basically your clan things would not get mixed with your IS things. I would say allow the xp of the mech share if they are the same type, in regards to the whole "3 of the same variant to go elite" requirement, and maybe the unlock of modules. But the modules themselves and the mech themelves are still separate. You may have a "capture accelerator (IS)" but you still have to buy a "capture accelerator (Clan)" to install it on your Clan mech, and vice versa. Same thing for MLas(IS) and MLas(Clan), or the few mech that is shared by both fractions later on. Mechs would be marked (IS) or (Clan) also. Having a Atlas-D-DC(IS) is different from a Atlas-D-DC(Clan), they still count as Atlas, but are different variants, and thus have their own XP tree.

Omni mechs have their pods of weapons replaced so that is different too, but that is actually easier since IS does not have access to those tech yet.

As for regular IS mech using clan tech, I would say NO for now.

ONE THING THAT SHOULD BE SHARED is cockpit item, except for the Fraction related ones. That and unlocked colors and mybe patterns.

 

I think I just heard an echo. ;-) I forgot about colours and have to agree. Colours unlocked by either side of the game should be usable on both sides.

Other than that, I agree with just about everything you said.

 

Zellbrigin needs to be a fundamental component of the Clans... otherwise WTF is the point..??? From strictly a pure tech balancing point of view it has to be the most retarded thing PGI could do is set it up this way... there is a 150 year period to set MWO in... why choose 3049-3050....??? Set it in 3039 and we are all IS with no issue... set in 3067ish again no real issue cause IS & Clan have by the whole balanced tech levels by then (with clan better in some areas & IS better in others)

I mean I get that the actual BT universe seems to be of no real importance to PGI... and a lot of people just wanna play a mech simulator which is fine... 3039 or 3067 fills that role so much better than 3050... cause the Clans & IS are balanced right not by tech or even numbers (though that does help) but by Zellbrigin...

Ugghhh... I'm gonna stop before this becomes a 3 page wall of text...

 

3039 or 3067!
I was thinking about that too. I would prefer 3067 with all the toys we can play with. But 3039 is nice too, then when everything is nice and fine we can speed up the time and go all the way to something bigger.

3049-3050 is a painful time to balance in terms of game play. We know things like Zellbrigin won't fly in gameplay just cause the idea of an online simulator is win at all cost... The best we can hope for is balanced combat in terms of control by mech numbers.

Nerfing clan weaponary would be a bad idea... without superior tech the clan is not the clan anymore.

 

Yes and no. The clans are more a "way of life" and superior tech is a byproduct of that superior way of life.

You could technically still play clan without all the fancy hardware but it would be more difficult of course; fighting inner sphere mechs we don't have to abide by Zellbrigen and chances are we won't; whether you have superior tech or not. Maybe House Kurita might think about it but the rest of us will curb stomp you Test Tube Kiddies.