Russ' Anti-Alpha Mechanic to Kill Ghost Heat via Twitter

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutreachHP...t_scale_replacement_details_via_russ_twitter/

Essentially, universal ghost heat across all weapon platforms fired at once...

So, as Reddit has explained, it breaks down like this...

(btw, these are not actual "energy" values, just examples to demonstrate theory)

Build: AC/20, 6x MPL
Reactor generates +50 Energy
MPL requires -6 energy
AC/20 requires -6 energy

All 6 MPLs require 36 energy, add the AC/20 and you're at 42 - therefore over "energy" threshold and incurring penalty. However, same would happen with 6x MPL and a single MLas, putting you at 41 energy, but 15 less damage.

It is theorized that "reactor energy" will recharge quickly, not incurring Ghost Heat instantly, but possibly cutting sustained DPS.

Now, depending on how much "energy" each weapon requires from a reactor, this could be very beneficial to some ballistic builds boating high alphas, but reliant on ammo, while rendering 4x LPL useless unless chained.

Not a ton has been revealed about this system, but this seems like a double edged sword... Heat Scale acrossed all systems? Ouch! BUT, with a big enough Reactor, 8x MPLs might not have heat penalty...

I'm confused. Too much mathing.

Discuss, Space Pirates!

 

My poor poor ERSL Nova! And my Gargoyles too!
Do they really deserve such treatment?

 

Seems to make sense, and has been posted a long time ago.
Larger engine will give a larger pool of energy to power weapons, not just more speed and maneuverability.

Not sure i'm a fan of the ghost heat, would like to just see longer time for a weapon to recharge:
If you exceed the power required to recharge all your weapons by say firing an Alpha, you'll have to wait longer for the engine to generate that power.
Some weapons would take twice as long (or longer) to recharge then, since power will be unavailable to them due to firing an Alpha.

It would make sense if heat=required power and engine rating=max power output, but math doesn't really work out in all cases. Arctic Cheetah with an engine of 240 would have 24 power units. Running a 6 cSPLasers, each with a heat of 3 would give a total power requirement of 18 when firing an Alpha, so it would never not be able to Alpha, unless heat threshold reached. On the other hand, mechs with lots of weapons and smaller engines would be in a pickle, say Bounty Hunter running an 300 engine, would have 30 power units. If he's running 2LPLasers and 5MLasers, his Alpha heat and power requirements would be 7+7+4+4+4+4+4 = 34, so power requirements of the Alpha exceed available power output by 4 units. One of the medium lasers would not charge until after the other weapons have charged.

Not sure how the math will work out yet, so I don't want to speculate, rather have PGI come up with something first.

 

I have difficulty wrapping my head around this concept probably because I've never been a math person. The idea itself is interesting to say the least, the implementation of course will drastically change the game. More so, I believe, than the advent of ghost heat.

Will they add a "Reactor Status" module to the cockpit on the previously unused data screens? Will you have a visual aid in making sure you don't cross that threshold or will you constantly have to be aware of your build requirements? Will it be so simple as to even require any of this?

Until, I am in a state where I can fully comprehend this (post gym is never a good time to brain), I will greet it with the same skepticism (and veiled hostility) as any other new idea to how the game plays. Honestly, I'm really just dreading the implications to my builds, I don't want to crawl through and adjust countless mechs for a new system xD

 

Honestly, I see this as a HUGE setback - if the current information is correct.

Basically, it EXPANDS ghost heat... Plus, slows TTK (another sermon from St Paul) We're here to fight... Let us kill robots!

Huge Front Load alphas hurt, but usually require either a VERY slow mech, or absolute Zero heat management. Not a concern for me. And TTK really only effects 1v1 weight discrepancies or bad builds.

Honestly, I'm one of the few who actually support ghost heat. Certain weapons need to be adjusted, but banning 6x PPC builds, 12x pulse laser builds, and 4-5x LPL builds alpha nukes is good! But, not being able to fire 4x MLas, 1x AC/20, 3x SRM in an Atlas makes it weaker than the mediums it will face!

This makes faster mechs EXPONETIALLY stronger than any heavier mech. Speed to fire, escape, "Reactor Engery" cool down and return is an incredible advantage! Slower mechs (Atlas) build up more "energy" with a STD300 than a Jenner (XL300) buy a HIGH margin. Same reactor size, MUCH lower alpha for the Jenner, but it can escape at 3 times the speed, has lower Cooldown (with proposed system) and can get back into firing range...

Once again, I don't know the full description of their idea, but it sounds horrifically game breaking on the little information given...

 

WE NEED TO KNOW PAUL!

 

I supported Ghost Heat as well. I used to run the 6x PPC Moo Cow (stalker) and it was cheesy as all hell. Losing it wasn't really an issue for me. It makes sense and it is relatively easy to account for.

You have three options to deal with ghost heat:

1)Don't be a trigger happy moron
2) Override and screw it all
3) Have a fairly balanced build

Those are all easy to accomplish and require very little effort from the casual Mechwarrior (those who just want to get out there, have fun, and murder).

MWO is already the "thinking man's FPS", I don't need nor want to go full mathematician to play this game.

 

Ahahahahahahahahahahaha ohohohohoho....

Jesus effin ah Christ... How fucking retarded are they? Well I remember Mike calling they'd do this 3 years ago... Hooo shiit what a setback.

I still don't get why they didn't go with the formula Homeless Bill made and offered to them for FREE?!
With that they would have solved most of the game play problems they've had + all heat issues as it was a good and balanced system.
Oh well this is what i expect coming out from that hug box like studio crammed with C level developers in charge..

Hooooooooo Hiiiiiiiiiiiiii, man i gotta stop for a while so i can stop laughing, this is killing me..

 

Reactor energy is essentially the concept that's been tossed around for a while in various forms...it's essentially a second heat bar that can be thought of as strain on your reactor rather than heat. The goal IS explicitly to penalize alphas and set effective DPS limits.

That said...called it. Unless they're going to make clear visuals and adjust the system to feedback (and weight!) this will actually be worse than ghost heat. And, as Bolt points out...the good version of this system already exists. They were handed a workable (and modifiable) version of it on a silver platter from no less than two independent sources, and they're STILL IGNORING IT. This was my core concern from the get go hearing Russ say Ghost Heat was viable to be replaced. The love affair is over, be ready for the new love affair, where emotion still trumps reason. And balance, and money, and fun.

 

I'm pretty heartbroken about this actually. I can only hope they reconsider this.

 

It was a good ride guys. Ghost heat was a terrible system (with it's current values) , so naturally to replace it they are creating a worse system.

Instead of exponential increases in heat. Ghost heat should have a linear 75% heat increase based off of the heat value of the weapon. Plus heat caps need changed.

Example:
Raise ppc cap to 3.
3ppcs = 30 heat + 0 ghost heat
4 ppcs = 40 heat + 7.5 ghost heat (75% of 10 is 7.5)
5 ppcs = 50 heat + 15 ghost heat
6 ppcs = 60 heat + 22.5 ghost heat

So boating more than 4 ppcs would be pretty trash anyway, but could still be fired without retarded consequences. Effectively killing 1 shot builds, but still letting people mount them without being 100% ineffective.

Example 2:
Mlas cap of 6.
7 mlas = 28 heat + 3 ghost heat
8 mlas = 32 heat + 6 ghost heat
9 mlas = 36 heat + 9 ghost heat

Again, cripples excessive boating, but still allows the build to exist.

Example 3:
Ac20 cap of 2.
2 ac20 = 12 heat + 4.5

Not crippling, but tbh 2 ac20 isn't a very OP build anyway. No mech can currently mount more than 2 ac20 other than the direwolf, 4 uac20 which is a terrible build anyway and would be pretty darn hot via ghost penalty (my sick name).

But in PGIs eyes, anything with an alpha similar to 4ppcs isn't like lore. Hope they never hear about the 4 erppc awesome with ecm and plenty of dhs to fire constantly, the hellstar with 30 dhs known to be able to alpha repeatedly (yet a dire with 30 dhs and 4 erppc is disgustingly hot), devastator, nightstar, thunder hawk, stone rhino, etc. All mechs capable of huge alphas, with minimal heat worries. Cmon pgi.

Just let us fight like men. The weak and stupid will die. The strong and smart will prevail!

Edit:
Oh and basing energy limits off of engine is a horrific idea. Basically then a Jenner (xl300) would have the same energy level as a direwolf (xl300). May make sense since they have the same sized powerplant. But not when they have a 65 ton weight difference and we want balance. Giving those two similar heat limits is a terrible idea, not only because one has a max of 6 hardpoints, the other a max of 20..... Another example is blackjacks, mostly energy mechs, mostly max engine cap of 235. So they should all run hot as shit? Then the bj1x would be even more OP because it'll be the coolest running of them by far.

Unless they unlock engine cap on any mechs up to a limit of 200kph or whatever, and then allow Omnis to swap engines. Because otherwise it'd be crippling or OP on a per chassis basis, and don't even dare to suggest a "quirk like system" to balance the heat levels per mech. Thatd just created monstrosities like the ac5 dragon we had to deal with, or the still slightly OP thunderbolts.

 

I'm just hoping that I'm misunderstanding.

 

Meeeh. At the moment, I dislike this idea. Unless I see it in implementation. Especially since they use heat again. I prefer the idea that if you go over the energy threshold, weapons take longer to recharge. (Or lasers could maybe do less damage?) I'd also tie weight into the equation. That way a larger, fatter mech, despite having the same engine as a zippy light mech, would not be more nerfed versus the light mech.
Otherwise, I haven't figured out something that would be better, but I'd like to see something not as esoteric as ghost heat.

 

So basically it is still ghostheat for most reasonable build with a single dominant system.
It would penalize things with AC20 or other weapon combo with hotter weapons. It would be painful for big slow mech that requires multiple big systems.

It is ignorable on high ballistic combos since they are not hot to begin with.
So in the end it would hurt many heavy/assault unless you go for high level XL, and it would help those huge engine Medium/Light.

PGI have the idiot vision of players working as small groups fighting seperately from each other in a slow cowardly way... reading way too many novels.
It will never be how games are played. In most fps people play, we would pile up in group (or run around like headless chickens) and most likely big one shot kaboom is the king.

For some reason they cannot accept that this is just not a roleplaying game. People make builds to win. Roleplay and chill out with your friends over a case of beer is fun. Online we come to kill other motherfuckers, not to make friends with them.

Roleplay in MWO if you want, but please do it in private matches, not wasting my game time in open queue.

 

^^ Funny you mention the Kodiak. If it gets implemented in any state even similar to what it seems. Kodiak is DOA. Pretty crazy for how much potential it shows as a mech.

 

Why make the Mech Control even more difficult with another Ressource? The Control is already not beginners-friendly enough, this would be even difficult for veterans.

Why not this? -> Replace the Ghost Penalty by a Alpha Damage Penalty! (for each weapon system differently according to their range/damage etc.)

This would allow Weapon Boating, just making Alpha Shots less effective, so up the TTK!

Examples:
1x ERPPC = 10 damage
2x ERPPC = 18 damage (20 minus 10% Alpha penalty)
3x ERPPC = 24 damage (30 minus 20% Alpha penalty)
4x ERPPC = 28 damage (40 minus 30% Alpha penalty)
5x ERPPC = 30 damage (50 minus 40% Alpha penalty)
6x ERPPCs = 30 damage (60 minus 50% Alpha penalty) hahaha, engine doesn't provide enough Energy to deal any extra damage! blurb-blurb-blurb...

1x AC20 = 20 damage
2x AC20 = 28 damage (40 minus 30% Alpha penalty)

1x Gauss = 15 damage
2x Gauss = 21 damage (30 minus 30% Alpha penalty)

5x MLas = 25
6x MLas = 28,5 damage (30 minus 5% Alpha penalty)
7x MLas = 31,5 damage (35 minus 10% Alpha penalty)
8x MLas = 32,0 damage (40 minus 20% Alpha penalty)
9x MLas = 31,5 damage (45 minus 30% Alpha penalty)

4x MPLas = 24
5x MPLas = 28,5 damage (30 minus 5% Alpha penalty)
6x MPLas = 32,4 damage (36 minus 10% Alpha penalty)
7x MPLas = 33,6 damage (42 minus 20% Alpha penalty)
8x MPLas = 33,6 damage (48 minus 30% Alpha penalty)

2x LRM15 = 30
3x LRM15 = 40,5 damage (45 minus 10% Alpha penalty)
4x LRM15 = 48,0 damage (60 minus 20% Alpha penalty)

1x SRM6 = 12,90
2x SRM6 = 23,22 damage (25,8 minus 10% Alpha penalty)
3x SRM6 = 30,96 damage (38,7 minus 20% Alpha penalty)
4x SRM6 = 36,12 damage (51,6 minus 30% Alpha penalty)
5x SRM6 = 38,70 damage (64,5 minus 40% Alpha penalty)
6x SRM6 = 38,70 damage (77,4 minus 50% Alpha penalty)

etc. etc. Penalty Numbers are examples and can be adjusted for balancing.

that means from a specific count of extra-boating upward you don't gain any effective damage benefit, makes absolutely no sense to boat more of the same gun damage-wise, BUT you still can run around and sync-fire ultra-multiple PPCs around like an idiot - have the fun!

No more complains from the Anti-Ghost Heat Camp, no more complains from the Anti-Weapon-Boating Camp, only Complains from the Meta-Dudes who wanna ultra-rapid-kill with a simple 1click-mechanism. Engineering-wise would be extremely challenging to Min-Max Builds!

Thoughts?

 

Will not work. Currently all projectile of the same kind does the same damage, this would mean each projectile having to be tracked differently. Also mean that if you get hit b two pieces of SRM missile, one can do way more damage than the other, simply cause one of them is from part of a more boated alpha?

 

This can be done technically. We already have different weapon sizes of the same weapon type, e.g. AC2, AC5, AC10, AC20 aka different weapon objects with different projectile parameters. An AC20 Bullet Object @30% Penalty would be dealt like an AC14 Bullet in the code, every other Bullet parameter is still the same like an AC20 Bullet, so yeah actually a slightly different Weapon Type -> the System just has to set the AC20 to a modified AC20 Object (internally), when hitting the penalty levels. On the Frontend the Weapon still looks the same for the player(s), but internally they are tracked differently like tracking different Weapon Types/Weapon Sizes. Would mean this extended weapon system would require extra weapon objects, and also the calculation more complex, but imo it is way less complex than adding another resource system.

Actually yes. Sounds illogical, but technically possible. It's like being hit by a SRM6 Missile and another modified SRM6 Missile.

We have to focus on the main problem the community has - it's all about two camps - one wants Alpha Boating aka simple 1Klick Killing Machines, the other wants more TTK Brawling Action. Heat Penalty is killing both camps, because it just does not prevent 1Klick Killing Machines, and boosted OH Speed shortens TTK even more, because getting into the situation of OH aka sitting like a duck somewhere, just lets the enemy kill you with 1Klick. Ghost Heat is not user-friendly, not anti- Meta/1Klick-Wannabe-Pros, and not making the Brawling more fun. What is the main problem? -> High Alpha Strike Damage aka Instant Kill Shots. So why fixing it on other parameters than the Damage Parameter itself? Why adding another problematic funkiller feature aka Ghost Penalty, instead lowering the Damage so to instantly achieve higher TTK Brawling Action scenarios? I know, it's all about Lore-compliant or not, right?

 

If Kodiak is DOA because of this, I will expect a full refund. Fuck that mess, why pay for a mech that they are going to fuck over?